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  • "falcotron" started this thread

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Thursday, August 21st 2008, 10:55pm

EnR vs. WoL

EnR have tried time and again to beat WoL. And they finally did it. And all they had to do was use a mass of attacks, including multiple suicide squads, which they controlled directly as puppets. (And they lived up to their no-merc pledge by having their allies and puppets hire all of the mercs on the board so that we couldn't. Except that in the end they hired 2 mercs anyway, so I guess never mind that no-merc pledge.)

Wait, isn't controlling other orders cheating?

Didn't all of W2 agree that suicide attacks are unethical and dishonorable? Didn't EnR in particular agree to that?

But maybe cheating and dishonor are perfectly fine in some situations.

Quoted from "talon55"

you won us 2-3 times already.
Yes, that's the reason. If they can't beat us in a fair fight--and in fact they can't beat anybody even though the two most powerful Christian orders in W2 (one of whom used to be our ally) have merged into their order--then it's perfectly justifiable for them to cheat, right? Of course!

Quoted from "talon55"

all I tried to do was make the battle somewhat even, we hired 2 mercs and had a ton, you guys have tons of huge allies, this is how we could even it out.
I should point out that EnR has twice as many people as WoL in the top 10 levels. Or in the top 5, top 15, top 8--pick any range you like, they have twice as many high-level people. That's "somewhat even"?

No, not yet. Apparently, that's still way too unfair to them, so while taking all of our allies out, they had to make sure to leave their three biggest allies free. So, surely that's at least "somewhat even," right?

No, not yet. Just to make sure we didn't get any random sympathy support, they had one of their orders declare a massively overbalanced bully attack and hire a bunch of mercs to take on a 5-man near-dead order. Sort of a suicide attack in reverse, I guess. Are we "somewhat even" yet?

No, no, their allies and puppets had to hire all of the mercs off the boards, even for the suicide attacks and bully attacks where they didn't matter, to make sure we couldn't hire any. Now? Surely that's "somewhat even"?

No, wait, they might as well break the no-merc pledge that they've staked their entire reputation on to hire 2 top-level mercs. And now, now we're "somewhat even."

So, they brought 3 allies to even out a battle where they already have twice as many high-level people, and they'd prevented us from having any ally support, any non-allied volunteers, and any of the top mercs. And in their minds, that's "somewhat even." But still only "somewhat even"--to really be even, I believe they would have needed to have all of German W1, a medium-sized dragon, and Jesus in a tank. But brave EnR were willing to risk it with only that "somewhat even" battle.

WoL did get some support. Talon apparently forgot about one of our allies, a 5-man order with 2 active members. And there were some mercs who showed up later, and some people who don't usually merc who decided to. And a handful of Christians volunteered against him in disgust. And one or two random Pagans volunteered for us before asking around about the 6 battles. And Sim, of course.

I'm very thankful to all of those people, and I hope they got a lot of xp for their effort.

But effectively, this was WoL alone vs. EnR and EnR's allies and two mercs. Oh, what guts for them to fight this "somewhat even" battle, and what grace to brag about their victory afterward.

Quoted from "talon55"

Besides do you think us christians like to lose all of the time, I mean we could have had a suicide order fight you. but we still wanted a challenge, we just simply tipped the scale over to our favor this time.
I'm not sure what this means. How would having a suicide order fight us have given them an easy win?

Anyway, what challenge was there in any of this, other than the challenge of logging into 6 accounts at the same time?

If I tied Shannon Briggs' arms behind his back and nailed his feet to the floor, I'm pretty sure I could beat him up. But what would that prove? Would I get the WBO title?

Finally, I shouldn't even have to say this to someone who's graduated kindergarten, but the fact that you don't like losing all the time doesn't actually give you the right to cheat.

Quoted from "talon55"

had FEAR not declared on someone else I would have declared on them.
And WoL would have been suicided to keep us out of the battle, right? And why am I supposed to be happy about this?

Quoted from "talon55"

you won us 2-3 times already and you can't take lossing once. maybe W2 isn't for you.
Maybe he's right. I've been in W2 since December, and it's the world I started in, but maybe I don't belong there. If nobody finds this conduct outrageous, if W2 is going to be about suicide squads and duplicity and cheating, then frankly, it isn't for me.

Nearly every Christian who contacted me justified EnR's actions (in almost the same words) by pointing out that FEAR attacked a dead order. I won't get into the FEAR attack here, but I don't see how these things are at all related. There were 3 exceptions, all mercs.

Every Saracen and Pagan who contacted me said, effectively, this is all part of the game, and we'll get revenge rah-rah-sis-boom-bah, and if need be we'll adapt to these tactics. There was 1 exception, a merc.

Sorry, if logging into other people's accounts to control their orders is part of the game, even though it's blatantly against the rules, and using suicide squads is part of the game, even though everyone in W2 agreed that they are dishonorable and unethical and should not be supported, then I don't want to play that game.

Sure, I could sink to his level and use the same tactics. Or better ones. I thought about all kinds of sleazy ways that we could help tiny orders defeat and humiliate EnR, before I came to my senses and realized that isn't me and I don't want to be that person, and I don't want WoL to be that order.

Hell, I could get revenge with a completely above-the-board attack against EnR. But what's the point? We just did that last weekend. They've conceded that the only way they know how to win is to cheat, and that we can beat them (or at least "win" them) over and over even though they're actually bigger and stronger than us, so what would it prove to do it one more time? Other than provoke them to find even more dirty tricks, that is.

And as for adapting to these tactics, I know exactly what this means. I went 8-0 during the 3- or 4-month plague of suicide squads in W3. But it wasn't the slightest bit enjoyable. It was tedious work, pointless battles, and the same dumb arguments over and over. And it wasn't just me. Ask Underground, or Doeg, or anyone else who ran a large order in those days, on either side. And it took months to change things, even after Doeg and Az got involved and started putting pressure from within the Christian side.

And I also know that many people think adapting means sinking to his level. Three different people suggested to me that we could have someone suicide EnR so that we can beat up all of their allies. And maybe we could even find a way to suicide EnR whenever anyone makes an attack. Yes, you could have someone leave FEAR, and create an order called Payback, and recruit 4 people who don't play in this world to create an account and get to level 5 and join and then go inactive, and they could sit there ready to suicide EnR at a moment's notice, and the effect would be that EnR could justify using 8 suicide squads next time and everyone would just say, "Well, both sides do it." I've been there before, and I'm not going back.

Maybe I'm overreacting, or misreading talon's PMs to me. Let's see how he justified things to someone else:

Quoted from "talon55"

I'll agree with the suicide orders, but us christians just needed a bit of a pick-me-up with out haveing to buy the win.
Do I even need to comment? They know two ways to win--cheat, or spend real money, and they wanted to win, and didn't want to spend real money, so it's OK that they cheated instead. And people accept that, and forward this to me to show me that things aren't so bad.

And what promises do we have that this really was a one-time thing?

Quoted from "talon55"

I'll endevor not to use them again.
Gee, that's nice. He's going to try real hard not to log into other OMs' account and use their orders as suicide squads. But, you know, he might slip and accidentally do it. And again, I'm supposed to take that as good news.

Even if everyone else just accepts this insanity, I don't. In fact, _especially_ if everyone else accepts it.

I want someone to tell me why I should bother staying in an AC position in world 2. In fact, tell me why I should stay in W2 at all.
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Friday, August 22nd 2008, 12:14am

...And now you see why I left W2 Falcotron :)

  • "falcotron" started this thread

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Friday, August 22nd 2008, 1:06am

...And now you see why I left W2 Falcotron :)
Yeah, I do. And you probably wouldn't be at all surprised by the names of the only three Christians who were exceptions, although you might be surprised that they're all still playing there.
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Friday, August 22nd 2008, 2:55am

ooo do tell :) I would love to hear it... or at least pm them to me.

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Friday, August 22nd 2008, 5:51pm

Ditto to what Falcotron says.

And with all that, EnR and Company didn't beat us by much.

I'm extremely proud of our Warriors of Light, and Falcotron is "The Man."

And if you think this doesn't mean much because it's coming from one of Falcotron's fellow Order members, then you haven't read this thread carefully enough.

Since breaking of the rules was involved, I'm sure the HW Administration will take appropriate action.

After all, what's the use of having rules if they aren't enforced.

And if people aren't playing by the rules, they are by definition not playing the game. They are not playing HW.

And that's what we're all here to play, isn't it?

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Friday, August 22nd 2008, 6:05pm

CHEATING IS CHEATING

After all, what's the use of having rules if they aren't enforced.



i think that says it all
lee 8)

7

Saturday, August 23rd 2008, 3:31pm

Wow falco... never knew you to get bent over a loss before.

Well I wasn't ACing the EnR attack, so I don't know all the details... but as for as I know, your allies were attacked by active orders that are not in EnR's hands. EnR knew that man-to-man, they are the stronger order, and that WoL's strength lies in it's allies, so someone helped cut them off. Even we received relatively low ally support. I think some people were tired of the way things were.

I think your arguments are someone one sided and unbalanced. Think of it like this:

the christians are the largest race in world 2, by a small margin, but nearly ALL of our strongest members (Avalon, John the Great, Simon Templar, arakna, and The Gambler to name a few) have gone merc, and the pagans and saracens right now are a much tighter-knit bunch. That means that when WoL goes to war, you enjoy the full and free support of FEAR, the NTS, the nea, and many of the non-alligned pagans. I've even seen the members of the supposedly merc order HWY jump into your camps for free, and that leaves you to hire the christian mercs since EnR is trying to discourage mercing now since the number of christian mercs has gone out of control, so you end up with the best of the pagans AND the christians. what does that leave us? a few lower-level allies who aren't enough to tip the scale much in our favor.

For ages you enjoyed the free support of the FK, which made you nearly invincible, and now that the FK is pretty much gone, it's like I stated above, you get the pagans AND the christian mercs, so you still have a bonus. If you were in a position like us, I'm sure you would have wanted a win bad enough to block a few of our allies from joining, and no, it's not cheating. It's not like someone multi-accounted, or logged into someone else's account against their will and declared war.

your V/D's were 19 to 2 before the battle. Compare that with EnR's and you'll probably understand why it took a little scheming in order to beat your advantage... an advantage you've had a long time, so what's the big deal if we win once? You say we were playing unfair, and sure it seems unfair for us to rip out all your advantages, but I think it's just as unfair for a large order of 60+ people to pick on a 5 man order, which I've seen many times and no one gives a damn. You've been so secure in your advantages for a long time, so to have them yanked out from under you and to have to fight on the level that many other orders have to deal with time and time again must be a bit unsettling. But like Erganos said

Quoted

And with all that, EnR and Company didn't beat us by much.
Exactly! despite all our efforts, it was STILL a close fight. Why would we just let the pieces fall where they may, and walk into what we KNOW is going to be a slaughter.

I personally love captain Jack Sparrow's take on subjects like this:

Quoted

Will Turner: You didn't beat me. You ignored the rules of a fair engagement. In a fair fight I'd kill you!
Jack Sparrow: Well that's not much incentive for me to fight fair then, is it?
After all this though, bear in mind that the pagans have used the same tactic against the Christians before... I didn't see anyone opening a thread about it, or accusing anyone of cheating. Maybe we should just get on with things and put it behind us. To set it straight Falcotron- I respect you, you're one of the best OM's I know, I feel badly about your loss, and I know what it feels like to loose badly, but life must go on. Remember what happened with the VK? that SUCKED! Not to mention after our first embarrassing defeat, WoL jumped on the bandwagon for an easy piece of booty to mark our 2nd straight defeat after a 7 win streak. How fair was that? you guys were 5 times our size. but hey, it's all the past now, right?

We're all imperfect, and deep down, every player is a thief and cutthroat. I mean, we all pick on the little guys when they pay 800 gold in a hit, right? is that fair to them? don't we get bith mails about it? does it stop us? no- and in essence, it's exactly the same thing.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "Jarlath" (Aug 23rd 2008, 4:50pm)


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Saturday, August 23rd 2008, 5:56pm

I'm sure you would have wanted a win bad enough to block a few of our allies from joining, and no, it's not cheating
He has wanted to win badly enough in w3 and never stooped to such a low level. So, in essence this is insulting to say put in the same position you would take the low road, especially if it isn't true.


For ages you enjoyed the free support of the FK,
He didn't just receive the support for nothing. It was not "free" by any means. He earned it the right way, unlike most of our bloated allies. Who only supported us when they knew the win was imminent.

After all this though, bear in mind that the pagans have used the same tactic against the Christians before... I didn't see anyone opening a thread about it, or accusing anyone of cheating.
Yes, people accused people of cheating... and hell falco actually helped us build a case. And so it is alright for one to commit an atrocity because someone else did? Two wrongs, actually do make a right? This was not FK... This is not what I worked for... I cannot speak completely for Wheedie but I do not think this was his intent either. Every time we had the possibility of returning the dishonorable behavior I did not. Every time we had the chance to jack NS members or jack FEAR members off the market when they hired our own FoA brothers and allies, I did not. How many times did I refuse to use FoA as a suicide order against our enemies to take out an order? Yes, we took a loss for it a few times. We paid the price for this honor I "thought" we had... but apparently that spirit is dead in w2.

Quoted

We're all imperfect, and deep down, every player is a thief and cutthroat. I mean, we all pick on the little guys when they pay 800 gold in a hit, right?

Even John the Great looked up from his little gold haul board as a so called "cutthroat" and realized this was wrong, and although he was indisposed he sent what he could to falco.

I probably will not reply to this thread again, for it makes me shake in anger. Since when did it become okay to use the same tactics as your enemy? Since when was it "alright" to settle for being a sinner and not improve? This is disgusting and loathsome.

9

Saturday, August 23rd 2008, 9:43pm

well that reply really did overlook the main issue of my post, and picks on the lesser details. I'll show you why:

Quoted

it makes me shake in anger. Since when did it become okay to use the same tactics as your enemy? Since when was it "alright" to settle for being a sinner and not improve? This is disgusting and loathsome.
Oooooh, Sinners the lot of us! May we burn in hell! 8o :rolleyes: . State the "Sin" and I'll say 50 hail mary's. (Crowns Ranock the Drama queen)

OK, well seriously, I'm not saying it's "right" or "okay." you totally missed the point. the point is, it's wrong to judge others too harshly, especially when we ourselves are not perfect. If I may quote the scriptures here- "Judge not that ye be not judged."

Now to some trivia:

Quoted

He has wanted to win badly enough in w3 and never stooped to such a low level. So, in essence this is insulting to say put in the same position you would take the low road, especially if it isn't true.
No insult intended, but I don't know that he's ever been in quite the same situation as I stated in my previous post:

Quoted

nearly ALL of our strongest members (Avalon, John the Great, Simon Templar, arakna, and The Gambler to name a few) have gone merc, and the pagans and saracens right now are a much tighter-knit bunch. That means that when WoL goes to war, you enjoy the full and free support of FEAR, the NTS, the nea, and many of the non-alligned pagans. I've even seen the members of the supposedly merc order HWY jump into your camps for free, and that leaves you to hire the christian mercs since EnR is trying to discourage mercing now since the number of christian mercs has gone out of control, so you end up with the best of the pagans AND the christians. what does that leave us? a few lower-level allies who aren't enough to tip the scale much in our favor.
If he HAS indeed been in this same situation, then I take it back and appologize.

Quoted

He didn't just receive the support for nothing. It was not "free" by any means. He earned it the right way, unlike most of our bloated allies. Who only supported us when they knew the win was imminent.
Completely missed the point!!!! What I mean by free is "non-merc." I'm a bit surprised I even had to explain that. It's clear enough. Why even argue that? just for the sake of having an answer?

Quoted

And so it is alright for one to commit an atrocity because someone else did?
I fail to see the "atrocity." Yes it may have been below the belt, but there was nothing illegal about what we did. We crippled his allies...that's WAR!!! go to any General in the middle-ages and say, "You've been camping around this enemy castle and have been cutting off his food supply and reinforcements in order to starve them into surrender?? THAT'S AN ATROCITY! UNFAIR!!!" and listen to him laugh in your face.

Quoted

This is not what I worked for... I cannot speak completely for Wheedie but I do not think this was his intent either. Every time we had the possibility of returning the dishonorable behavior I did not. Every time we had the chance to jack NS members or jack FEAR members off the market when they hired our own FoA brothers and allies, I did not.
For this, I applaude you and take my hat off to you... but let's look at another order... the NS!!!
remember that tragic first defeat of the FK? Many of the same things happened. They launched a suicide order against the FoA, hired the EnR as mercs against you (many times against the EnR's will, like in my case), and they left the FK virtually ally-naked. Yes they won, yes there was a stink made about it (although I never did see a bitter forum thread opened about it)... though in all honesty, not half so big a deal as we are making here. I'm not saying what EnR did was right or noble. Please understand that. My point is not that "we're right, and you're wrong." No, no, no. Not at all. The point is that this is only going to make it worse. It's going to peeve off talon, which will peeve off stephen, which with peeve off Falcotron, and soon we're all going to be a bunch of pissed off brutes, bitch-slapping each other over this. And besides, how much of a reality are we going to make out of this RPG game? are we going to take our actions on-line and then define someone's characture based on how they choose to play holy-war? If we do, maybe we need to stop, take a break, and get back to the game when we can distinguish RPG from reality. OK, now if someone hacks another account and steals from it, or something equally as big, then fine- make an issue, put them in their place, kick them off Holy-war for all I care! It's deserved! But what you're picking on is someone's warfare tactics. That's their choice, and people are perfectly entitled to their own style, and no amount of legislating righteousness is going to change that

I won't judge the (now departed) NS for what they did. Hey, they wanted a win, they pulled some unfair tactics to make it happen...and??? Let's loose sleep over it, and hold a grudge as long as ten months down the line, shall we? Let's open threads about it and make them feel like dirt about it! How about it! I'm sure that will make us all feel warm and tingly inside :) Let's do that with EnR and WoL too! That'll be great fun! Then, some months later, our orders can get so upset at each other, that we start to scare off our members, and soon the mighty EnR and WoL will be reduced to 10-15 man order cause all their members went to make their own small team that they can run in their own style, as fair or unfair as they want.

Or... or we can move on, shake hands, and go back to planning our next attack. And I'm glad to say, that despite some initial bitterness, the FK moved on... it took time granted, but at least nothing like this arose out of it. Congrats FK! My hat goes off to you (and I'm NOT being sarcastic here).

There are several ways you can look at what Talon and Sir Stephen did:

1. you can say, "unfair! below the belt! foul!" (hint: this option will achieve nothing)
2. you can say, "The AC's and OM's first responsibility is too their order, and to it's members, and if you don't do everything you can to ensure their success, you are a negligent OM (this might be an extreme example. Let's not take "everything" to the extreme here to the point of breaking HW rules.)
3. You can say, yeah, it was a dirty trick, and we lost, and will recover in less then 24 hours, and at the end of the day, life goes on... (this one is probably the best)

If you choose the first one, all that will ensue is anger, vengeance, dispute, and may end in people deleting their accounts, disbanding their order, and walking out. I'm not being sarcastic when I say I'd HATE to see that happen.

This argument can rage on all it wants, but nothing good will ever come out of it, I promise you. I guarantee it, in fact!!! If there are any more posts in this to carry on the argument, it's all downhill, so I, having said my piece (and I hope there's no more confusion over what my point is, as I believe I've made myself as clear as I can possibly be without having to talk kindergarden), I will stay out of this discussion. It can go where it wants from here.

This post has been edited 5 times, last edit by "Jarlath" (Aug 26th 2008, 10:16pm)


10

Saturday, August 23rd 2008, 10:34pm

one last thing, Falco, if i could go back and see to it that things were done diferently, I would. I'm sorry for what happened. honest.

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Sunday, August 24th 2008, 2:25am

Jarlath, I can understand your desire to defend your leader, but you're twisting yourself in a knot trying to do so.

And you've done it before. Remember when someone from EnR mercjacked our allies, and tried to bribe others while logged into your account? You convinced me that you weren't to blame, and I believe it. But you then went on to try to defend his actions, and that really does make you less respectable. I didn't realize at the time, but this is why I was able to believe you were capable of such things--because you defend people who are.
Wow falco... never knew you to get bent over a loss before.
Well, I don't lose that often. And when I lose in an honorable battle, that's fine; I salute the victor. When Beer was defeated in our first post-Grog battle, of course it sucked, but I accepted that the other side beat us fair and square and deserved their win.

That's not what happened here.

Quoted

as for as I know, your allies were attacked by active orders that are not in EnR's hands.
So BOS, who talon loudly claimed was dead when they were last attacked, is an active order? (And Talon should know, as he merged all of the active members of BOS into EnR a couple months ago.)

Quoted

the christians are the largest race in world 2, by a small margin, but nearly ALL of our strongest members (Avalon, John the Great, Simon Templar, arakna, and The Gambler to name a few) have gone merc
And Mangle, HAOU, Spud, UG, def, jbuzz, vix, Violator, and Mikey haven't? Except for the brief era when NS was on the attack, most of the strongest Pagans have been mercs for a long time.

And notice that all 10 of my examples are in the top 3 levels, while you had to reach down 6 levels to find even 5. Do you really think Gambler being a merc hurts the Christians more than def hurts the other side?

Top 10 Christians by level: 5 EnR, 2 EnR allies, 3 mercs.
Top 10 Pagans by level: 4 FEAR, 6 mercs.

If you want to whine that your side has been hurt by all those evil mercs, remember that the other side has been hurt twice as badly, and for five times as long.

Quoted

the pagans and saracens right now are a much tighter-knit bunch. That means that when WoL goes to war, you enjoy the full and free support of FEAR, the NTS, the nea, and many of the non-alligned pagans.
Maybe because of a long history of EnR not showing up for, or even fighting against, their own allies? I'm not just talking about NS, SOJ, and som; they also fought against KG and KoC in the past, stayed out of a battle for FK... and I'm sure this doesn't help:

Quoted

talon55
lvl: 63 27
Will fight for primi ticket. 3 battles against non ally, or 1 battle against ally.

Quoted

If you were in a position like us, I'm sure you would have wanted a win bad enough to block a few of our allies from joining
I resent that.

About two months ago, I declared an attack in W3, and two of my allies were suicided. I went on the SB demanding that no Pagan suicide squads retaliate, and sent PMs to all that I knew about. 5 minutes later, 2 more allies were suicided, and another ally was attacked by an order 4 times their size. I repeated my demand.

And I think the vast majority would do the same as me. Including you. And including the leaders of most of the best orders in W2, W3, and W4--which is not a coincidence. There is strength in honor. Apparently you've been so corrupted by working under talon that you believe everyone is just like him, even though you yourself are not.

Quoted

It's not like someone multi-accounted, or logged into someone else's account against their will and declared war.
You're telling me that all 7 OMs or ACs, including at least one from a supposedly dead order, were around and together enough to declare at the same time--not as part of an advance plan, but in immediate reaction to a declaration by FEAR? I have a hard time believing that. It may not be against their will, but it's still multi-accounting.

Quoted

your V/D's were 19 to 2 before the battle. Compare that with EnR's and you'll probably understand why it took a little scheming in order to beat your advantage... an advantage you've had a long time, so what's the big deal if we win once?
"It's not fair that we suck, so we should be allowed to cheat."

Frankly, we deserve our record, and you deserve yours. We've had an advantage for a long time because we worked hard, and smart, for a long time to get it.

Is it unfair that Shannon Briggs could beat me up? Yes, it's horribly unfair. I want to be the World Heavyweight Champion, and just because he had some lucky genetics and worked his whole life and endured a lot of pain to get where he is, why shouldn't I get to win one? Look at his record, while I have 0 wins! So, I should be able to challenge him to a match, then get people to tie back his arms, and then when I beat him, that should count as a victory, right?

Quoted

You say we were playing unfair, and sure it seems unfair for us to rip out all your advantages, but I think it's just as unfair for a large order of 60+ people to pick on a 5 man order, which I've seen many times and no one gives a damn.
Maybe no one in EnR gives a damn. I have volunteered for those 5-man orders many times in the past. And not just when it's the Christians. I fought against som when they attacked a 1-man order. I fought repeatedly against BoB when they attacked dead and 2-man orders every week. And I saw Pagans like Mangle and LH in there with me. And Big Phil. I don't think a single member of EnR, past or present, ever did the same.

But I don't see how this is relevant. You're just saying exactly what Ranock claimed you were saying: that two wrongs make a right. And it's not as if WoL was even the perpetrator, or EnR the victim.

Quoted

You've been so secure in your advantages for a long time, so to have them yanked out from under you and to have to fight on the level that many other orders have to deal with time and time again must be a bit unsettling.
Excuse me, but what other order has to fight with no allies time and time again?

Well, I can name some that used to face that time and time again: CoV, FEAR, ROME, td, IWL, and king, and to a lesser extent GoD and BoH. It wasn't "unsettling"--it was boring, tedious, and annoying. Even though IWL went 8-0, the game sucked and was pointless.

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But like Erganos said

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And with all that, EnR and Company didn't beat us by much.
Exactly! despite all our efforts, it was STILL a close fight.
The fact that, despite all this sleazy behavior, you still barely won doesn't make it any less sleazy; it just means you suck even more. That doesn't justify anything. If talon decided to rob a bank, but on the way out he shot himself in the leg and dropped most of the money, would it be OK because he barely got away with it? Or would he still be a bank robber?

Even if we won, I would still be angry. Just ask PsionicMage or Archangel Michael. (Well, you can't ask Mage, because he was banned for cheating.) Why? When people sink to this level, and everyone rationalizes or just accepts it, that destroys the game.

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After all this though, bear in mind that the pagans have used the same tactic against the Christians before...
Like when NS attacked FoA so that FEAR could beat FK for the second time? When WoL volunteered for FoA, while EnR allied with NS? (And then volunteered for FoA in the next NS-FoA battle!)

Yes, I'll bear that in mind.

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Maybe we should just get on with things and put it behind us.
If that's everyone's attitude, then putting it behind us means accepting that people will do this again and again. Why would I want to get on with that? If things aren't going to change, then there is no point running an order in W2; the only way to "get on with it" is to follow Ranock and get out.

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I feel badly about your loss, and I know what it feels like to loose badly, but life must go on. Remember what happened with the VK? that SUCKED!
Come on. VK lost because you put it in the hands of an idiot. You can't blame anyone but mifa for that loss. Nobody pulled off dirty tricks against VK. This is in no way the same thing.

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We're all imperfect, and deep down, every player is a thief and cutthroat. I mean, we all pick on the little guys when they pay 800 gold in a hit, right? is that fair to them? don't we get bith mails about it? does it stop us? no- and in essence, it's exactly the same thing.
No, it's not. Maybe you could make that case that attacking a 5-man order is the same thing, but using suicide squads is not.

A more apt example: Do we all cheat to take away a better player's advantages so we can beat them? Do we defend those who do? When the person who did that to TBS was exposed, all of W1 turned against him. When the person who did that to jab was not caught, all of W2 rallied around jab. Nobody said, "All's fair in love and war."

There's a code of ethics in HW (slightly different in each world) that everyone who's been playing for a long time knows. People get disappointed in their orders and allies who violate it, and angry at their enemies who do so, and they feel dirty and turn defensive when they do it themselves. And you can't pretend that talon doesn't know that code. In fact, I think EnR hates suicide orders as much as everyone else, and would complain very loudly if they were used against them. Talon has even explicitly said that he doesn't want to change things so that suicide squads are an accepted tactic and used all the time.

So what is it that EnR wants? To be allowed to do whatever they want and not get called on it, while everyone else is forced to play fair with them.

The fact that you're defending EnR here and still trying to get in jabs at FEAR pretty much proves that.
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12

Sunday, August 24th 2008, 3:22am

alright so you choose to carry it on... fine... things will get bad, and messy and a lot of cra.p will come of it, but hey you'll get it off your chest, so fine that's cool. I don't want to carry this on... just a few things I want to say...

Firstly Falco, I understand where you're coming from. OK? The only problem I have with this, is that you are being overly judgemental. Sure, I'll crack a comment in the SB when I see a big order pick on a small one. I'll say something sarcastic, like, "wow, how brave of you!" Because I don't agree with cowardice and bullying! But then, usually after hearing some lame excuse as to "why they chose that small order," I'll leave it be, cause at the end of the day, it's their choice and I can't dictate righteousness to either pagan, saracen or christian. Like I said, I let it go when the NS did the exact same thing to FK.

It's a game my friend, and people will play as they want. Nothing you or I do can change that. Your incinuation (or shall I rather say, demanding) that EnR is cheating is ludicrous. BoS is NOT a dead order. maybe they once were, but joe is in command now. he sighned up against EnR in yesterdays EnR vs KOSB battle by mistake and sent an appology. Dead? no, I think not... so much for that accusation. He just went out of his way to help EnR.

And the reason EnR looses is because they suck? Really man- you are above comments like that. Don't stoop.

Firstly, "Sucking" really can't be the issue. EnR is allied with pretty much ALL the non-merc christians, but that's really a tiny number. Basically it's big Phil, Vladeus, jib33, peppers4ever, and Sir Matthew... then there's a few measerly level 40's on down that come to help, but all the really strong guys are merc. And honestly, Mangle, HAOU,Spud, UG, Mikey and all those other you named are a tiny percentage compared to the number of christians that have gone merc. Not to mention that a lot of those names are from HWY who support you for free...despite the fact that you aren't allied. Christians aren't always so noble. So you still get the most support. how else do you think you've been winning before? luck? No, it's a simple fact that your strength lies in your volenteers, not your order members, so to win, that's what we hit. It's just like doing pre-battle strikes, only to a greater degree, and don't call it cheating again. It just isn't true and insisting on it will only make it look like your fishing for arguments. There was no cheating involved as far as HW rules are concerned.

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Top 10 Christians by level: 5 EnR, 2 EnR allies, 3 mercs.
Top 10 Pagans by level: 4 FEAR, 6 mercs.
Yes but that's ONLY the top level, and you left out the saracens, and the fact that lots of those MERC top level pagans support you for free anyway, so you end up with the most when all's said and done. Plus, adding up the next 5 levels below the pagans come out on top, and let's not forget that one of EnR's top level allies just had his stats brutally cut down. (please let's stay off the topic of why and who. We all know and it's embarrassing for the guy)

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Like when NS attacked FoA so that FEAR could beat FK for the second time? When WoL volunteered for FoA, while EnR allied with NS? (And then volunteered for FoA in the next NS-FoA battle!)

Yes, I'll bear that in mind.
you forget who you're talking to. Who was it that fought the EnR alliance with NS the hardest? I made it clear that if the alliance continued I would leave EnR because I would not ally with an order who attacked christians, especially allies. I do have a sense of honor- I just don't try to force it on everyone else and say "This is how you must play or you're a cheater!" That's where the main difference between us lies, and I resent that you insinuate that I've been "corrupted." I don't support these things. Like I said before, if I could do it differently I would, but to see you blowing it out of proportion like this, and setting yourself up on a pedestal high above everyone else is a little more then I can take.

This issue would be much easier and better resolved if you realized that neither you, nor the FK, nor FEAR, nor the NS, nor the EnR, nor ANY order is perfect or holy and all a good shiny example. Sure, I didn't agree with EnR when they volenteered against the FK with FEAR, who wasn't even their ally. It was a cheap move and I almost left for it, but I need to weigh people's mistakes against their good side, and I sincerely believe that Talon, Sir Stephen, Elizabeth I, and all the members of EnR are good, kind, helpful, funny, and jovial people who just want to have a but of fun in HW. Seriously, no one takes this kind of thing as seriously or hard as you... except maybe ranock. :P

this can go on and on and on all it likes... and now I'll leave for real. Sorry, I wish I could make it right. I wish we could make peace and reconcile this whole mess... but you aren't willing to, obviously, and I doubt that even if talon himself appologized it would change anything, so I can see the fruitlessness of continuing this discussion. Falcotron I wish you all the best and hope that despite your grudge you'll still be able to enjoy the game and find something to like about world 2... if not, then may you find happiness in your other worlds.

All the best to you. And do know that despite your hurtful comments I don't think any less of you. I only wish that were mutual, but since it's not, I take my leave a little sadder for it.

Jarlath out

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "Jarlath" (Aug 25th 2008, 3:20pm)


illyrian

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13

Sunday, November 2nd 2008, 10:32pm

how ironic!

the WOL clone in w4 (DWL) that has like 63 members or so did the same thing to a 20 member order! They are fast to point out "code of conducts" when they are allied to 75% of the strongest orders in w2 (and for the longest time in w4) and posting threads on how they win cause they are simply good and how the remaining 25% of the orders really "ought to play smarter" but when faced with the slightest challenge they will resort to the same tactic that they consider a no no.

what a bunch of hypocrites!