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  • "falcotron" started this thread

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Saturday, June 7th 2008, 1:59pm

DWL vs. VV

(Sorry this is a few days late, but I had a busy week.)

I would like to assure the Christians that, contrary to Deka2's propaganda, this battle was not about preventing the Christians from growing strong or building alliances. DWL is allied with Ronin, one the strongest Christian order, and always among the most respectable, and has maintained cordial relationships with others. We would like to see other strong alliances (ideally, but not necessarily, multi-faith alliances like ours) arise to provide an honorable challenge on the battlefield.

However, an order founded on multi-account farming, the use of puppet orders, other forms of cheating, and technically legal but disreputable practices such as the first use of suicidesquads in world 4, can never be that honorable foe.

We hope this battle proved once and for all that suicidesquads do not win battles, cheaters do not prosper, and honor is the path the victory.

Despite two orders led by VV-controlled puppet accounts declaring kamikaze attacks on our two largest allies to take them out of the battle, we still managed to amass more than 50% more volunteers than VV. With the help of our allies, our friends, our mercenaries, and the people of all faiths who signed up just to teach VV a lesson, we dealt VV a crushing defeat.

On behalf of all of DWL, we thank the rest of world 4 for winning the battle on our behalf--we couldn't have done it without you all.

Battle participants [DWL]: 204
Level average [DWL]: 17.66
Battle participants [VV]: 135
Level average [VV]: 17.07

Winner : Divine Warriors of Light Haul : 573
Attacker Defender
Divine Warriors of Light Majestic Warriors
Fights 815 815
won 428 387
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Yooper

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Sunday, June 8th 2008, 4:51pm

I'll add to this on behalf of the VV members.

First, we knew of the rotational hits that were coming to VV. We knew DWL was hitting us that day and then S-B would be next, just in time for LG and BoW to restart the rotational hits. If this was because of cheating, why wasn't it brought to the attention of the Admins first? If we had no idea of the multi accounts, then how would others know?

For myself and many others in the order, when going to sleep, we had decided to let them hit us, and not merc. There was talk the night before of having an order (not a 5 man order.. a decent order) attack LG or BoW at the same time to split the allies and we'd send all support to them and still take the loss (now I may be wrong, but that's not a suicide attempt if they would be out to win, correct? That's what happened when BoW attacked us.. OB declared on someone, then they declare on us) Though, as stated, it was not the plan the last I heard as we hadn't have a chance to talk to the OM and was left at.. do nothing.. we'd expand the following day.

Though, I see nothing wrong in trying to defend ourselves from a rotational attack, cheating with multi-accounts is wrong and I KNOW the majority had no idea.

Waking up to the SB, I think that the VV members that had no idea about the two attacks, were shocked and did the best they could to stick together. I was proud of the maturity of most of the members and not spitting out garbage into the SB. It was difficult with no leader, and no idea what was happening and being attacked. Even ones that were trying to calm down the SB were being attacked.

I think that VV should do very well now once they decide on a leader and move forward. Most of the members are awesome and intelligent and look forward to fighting alongside you in battles to come!

World 4

  • "falcotron" started this thread

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Monday, June 9th 2008, 4:38am

First, we knew of the rotational hits that were coming to VV. We knew DWL was hitting us that day and then S-B would be next, just in time for LG and BoW to restart the rotational hits.
I keep hearing this, and it always surprises me, because I didn't know about this plan, and I'm the one who clicked the button. BoW wanted us to attack 24 hours after them, and we didn't; when we did finally attack, it was closer to 60 hours.

Quoted from "Yooper"

If this was because of cheating, why wasn't it brought to the attention of the Admins first? If we had no idea of the multi accounts, then how would others know?
Really, I wanted an in-game solution. I wanted to prove to everyone that VV could not win by relying on cheating. The admins always find out sooner or later, and we wanted to beat you before they found out and took action, to make our point. If they'd just deleted and banned a bunch of your members (which they did over the rest of the following week), all that would happen would be that people would think they have to be more clever than DarkCry to get away with it. Instead (I hope) people now think that, even if they can get away with it, it won't help them win.

DarkCry's admissions and DarkHobo's complaints on the SB made that the cheating even more obvious, and our victory despite the suicide attacks made our point even better. And of course the whole fiasco made the admins catch on more quickly, and act more quickly, than they usually do, but that was just an unintended side effect.

Quoted from "Yooper"

For myself and many others in the order, when going to sleep, we had decided to let them hit us, and not merc. There was talk the night before of having an order (not a 5 man order.. a decent order) attack LG or BoW at the same time to split the allies and we'd send all support to them and still take the loss (now I may be wrong, but that's not a suicide attempt if they would be out to win, correct?
No, it's not. There are shades of grey, of course. When OB attacked someone the last time DWL attacked their brother order KT, that was slimy only because KT got screwed over by their own allies; in this case, if VV were behind the OB attack, I don't think there would have been anything wrong with it.

Quoted from "Yooper"

Though, I see nothing wrong in trying to defend ourselves from a rotational attack, cheating with multi-accounts is wrong and I KNOW the majority had no idea.
I've talked to at least 3 members of VV who I'm absolutely positive didn't know what was going on. One of them even asked me if there was any way he could find out how much of his haul over the past 2 weeks came from farm accounts and somehow give it back. That's what makes this whole thing so sad--honest players were caught up in the mess.

That includes a lot of good people. I'm not sure if it's the majority--you're in a better position to figure that out than me. I know there are players who would have been honest if left to their own devices, but who were sucked in by the bad influence and eventually openly participated. For someone who wants to rebuild, figuring out who was an honest victim, who was a remorseful conspirator and wants to turn over a new leaf, who has been hopelessly corrupted, and who was involved from the start--well, that's going to be a tough job, and I can honestly say I'm glad it's not my job.

Quoted from "Yooper"

Waking up to the SB, I think that the VV members that had no idea about the two attacks, were shocked and did the best they could to stick together. I was proud of the maturity of most of the members and not spitting out garbage into the SB. It was difficult with no leader, and no idea what was happening and being attacked. Even ones that were trying to calm down the SB were being attacked.
Frankly, after deka and DarkCry started attacking DarkHobo for complaining that his account was used against his will, I don't think there was any way to calm down the SB. I told my members to just say nothing and turn off the SB if necessary. Having a mod in the order who threatened to ban her own order brothers if they didn't shut up probably helped, especially after she did ban some of our allies. But it did get nasty for a while--and mostly it wasn't VV, or DWL and our allies, but other people who were just discovering what was going on and just getting angry about it, which I can understand.

Quoted from "Yooper"

I think that VV should do very well now once they decide on a leader and move forward. Most of the members are awesome and intelligent and look forward to fighting alongside you in battles to come!
Well, if I were in your shoes I'd be looking to leave the order for someone like KT or Ronin, or to start a new order and build that up. Why try to save an order with a bad reputation and a 3-3 record and apparently little to no gold in the coffers when you can instead improve an order with an honorable reputation and a 3-0 record, or start from a clean slate? I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just questioning whether it's worth it.

But again that's your decision to make, not mine. Whether we end up fighting on the same side, opposite sides, or (as is most likely) a little of each, I look forward to a strong, honorable Christian order to make W4 more interesting.
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Yooper

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Monday, June 9th 2008, 5:37am

I keep hearing this, and it always surprises me, because I didn't know about this plan, and I'm the one who clicked the button. BoW wanted us to attack 24 hours after them, and we didn't; when we did finally attack, it was closer to 60 hours.


I saw it in the SB from an OM from one of the orders in the rotational attacks. I can post here of need be, I have it copied.

Quoted from "falcotron"

Really, I wanted an in-game solution. I wanted to prove to everyone that VV could not win by relying on cheating. The admins always find out sooner or later, and we wanted to beat you before they found out and took action, to make our point. If they'd just deleted and banned a bunch of your members (which they did over the rest of the following week), all that would happen would be that people would think they have to be more clever than DarkCry to get away with it. Instead (I hope) people now think that, even if they can get away with it, it won't help them win.


I was asking how you knew, many of us in the order didn't. Maybe we are more trusting, but unless it was suspicions or someone admitted.. how can you tell? The only questionable one I knew of was DarkHobo, which was a real person, but deka2 played the account, but obviously still talked to him if he was on the account.

Quoted from "falcotron"

Frankly, after deka and DarkCry started attacking DarkHobo for complaining that his account was used against his will, I don't think there was any way to calm down the SB. I told my members to just say nothing and turn off the SB if necessary. Having a mod in the order who threatened to ban her own order brothers if they didn't shut up probably helped, especially after she did ban some of our allies. But it did get nasty for a while--and mostly it wasn't VV, or DWL and our allies, but other people who were just discovering what was going on and just getting angry about it, which I can understand.


Looks like I missed the worst of it. I'm happy I was sleeping.

Quoted from "falcotron"

Well, if I were in your shoes I'd be looking to leave the order for someone like KT or Ronin, or to start a new order and build that up. Why try to save an order with a bad reputation and a 3-3 record and apparently little to no gold in the coffers when you can instead improve an order with an honorable reputation and a 3-0 record, or start from a clean slate? I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just questioning whether it's worth it.

But again that's your decision to make, not mine. Whether we end up fighting on the same side, opposite sides, or (as is most likely) a little of each, I look forward to a strong, honorable Christian order to make W4 more interesting.


I resigned before all of the deletions or knowing they were coming. I had written Mage and told him that this was the second battle he conveniently didn't show up for and three days of trying to get a decision from him about what to do was not something I thought showed good leadership and I refused to stay and support him. If I had known he was cheating and was going to get deleted, I would have stuck around and help rebuild, but I had already made my decision and I don't like order hopping, took me a long time to decide to join VV. The members were great, but the leadership lacked, I think they will come out of this ahead though! They have a good group!

World 4

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Monday, June 9th 2008, 9:05am

I was asking how you knew, many of us in the order didn't. Maybe we are more trusting, but unless it was suspicions or someone admitted.. how can you tell? The only questionable one I knew of was DarkHobo, which was a real person, but deka2 played the account, but obviously still talked to him if he was on the account.
I don't want to discuss all of this dirty laundry in public. Partly because I don't want to give people ideas of how they were caught out and therefore how to avoid being caught in the future, but mainly because I don't know who's innocent and to what degree, and the last thing I want to do is further hurt the people who were caught up in the middle of this without their knowledge.
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