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The Black Knight

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1

Sunday, November 29th 2009, 12:30pm

Your account has been marked for deletion

Thanks for everything, but I think I've had too much fun at this point and my fun receptors are overloaded.

I'm quitting Holy War.

Goodbye to everyone, and best wishes.

2

Sunday, November 29th 2009, 12:52pm

Ummm...TBK? :(

Vedauwoo

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3

Sunday, November 29th 2009, 12:58pm

Best I can tell...

It was my fault for jumping into the battle for [RED] :cursing:

4

Sunday, November 29th 2009, 2:30pm

I'm not quite sure what it was, ved. Probably a combination of things. A lot of work was being put on TBK to arrange Holy Risk. Other people wanted to give it a try but, if they were anything like me, simply didn't have the time to put in on planning and organizing. TBK probably didn't either, but he still did a lot of the work, so maybe that was frustrating.

Maybe it was you jumping into the battle.

Maybe it was the fact that the battle was declared at all. This was meant as a test battle, and it was hoped that the battle would get people moving since we'd been in these orders for several days with nothing happening. I didn't even know that the battle was going down until I logged in to see it already declared, with a string of PMs among order members talking about it in the couple hours leading up to declaration. But TBK didn't like that the battle wasn't scheduled in advance, and it broke up what was supposed to be one of his work shifts.

I also saw a PM exchange between Cas and TBK near battle time. You, ved, weren't the only volunteer. There were several on each side, and all three lvl 80+ went to RED's side, which very likely changed the outcome of the battle. TBK asked the volunteers to sit out in the future or else to join up on a team. Cas replied that she thought this was a double standard in that all of the non-Risk players were being told to stay out while all of the Risk players were still rushing back to honor their old alliances...even though this was billed as something meant the change the dynamic in W4. As Cas more or less put it, how is anything changing if we're keeping all of the old allies and joining all of the same, old battles?

TBK disagreed with this logic on some level, arguing that Risk is meant as a supplement to the rest of W4 for those who join teams, and then shouted that he was very close to deleting. So maybe it was that PM exchange that ultimately set him off.

But, really, from my position, all I can do is speculate because I haven't seen anything more than TBK's announcement that he is deleting. :(


In the end, though, the battle ended up being a pretty good one, even though I cowed out pretty badly in it (darned timer not waking me up!). XP seemed to be good for most people, and since I had less than 13k LP remaining, the battle was still fairly close overall. With no volunteers, it probably would have swung slightly the other way. With just ved on the other side, it would have been very, very close. So we found out a little about what we wanted to find out in terms of the relative balance of a couple of teams and the likelihood of dealing with gate crashers. As I said to TBK and others before, I don't think we can stop people from crashing these Risk battles, and I don't think it's in our interest to be mean about it or to obsess or to get angry. In fact, I kind of want people to see that we are all having fun in smaller orders without the normal alliances, and that we're getting great XP and a more active battle board in the process. We just have to keep a few people from other Risk orders on alert who are willing to jump into a battle last-minute to balance the crashers. We didn't have that this battle, and the balance shifted too much to one side. Live and learn.

But having fun and good XP in Risk is what was supposed to change W4 for the better. I didn't expect to see W4 shrink out of frustration. I didn't think, TBK, that you would delete in reaction to this battle. I'm sorry to see you leave this way...or to see you leave at all. :(

Vedauwoo

Unregistered

5

Sunday, November 29th 2009, 3:15pm

[RED] Vs [BLUE]

In the end, though, the battle ended up being a pretty good one
IMHO, if people score more than 50 XP in a battle, then it was a good battle. I scored 60 XP for the record and more gold than ever in an order battle.
We just have to keep a few people from other Risk orders on alert who are willing to jump into a battle last-minute to balance the crashers
I agree. I signed up early as [RED] has far less power hitters than [BLUE]. I figured that I would make it closer. Little did I know KU is member of [RED] but not in the order, although I think if that battle were to be fought again several times, the outcome would be doubtful even with the vols. I got a lot of lucky early wins. I have balanced or have at least tried to balance big battles in the past, the ones that kill it are the ones who jump in in the last 3-5 minutes and you need some backup and good communication to keep that situation from radically unbalancing the fight.

In any event, I understand Cas' concerns and I still think the battle would be a good learning opportunity. No reason to up and quit, way early in the morning mountain time.

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6

Sunday, November 29th 2009, 10:14pm

Ved, if you wanted to participate in Holy Risk, you should have participated. Dozens of people put in effort and sacrificed their orders to make it work. A number of people have said that Holy Risk was the last chance to keep them in HW. This was supposed to be a battle to help those dozens of people gauge the respective strengths of the teams that had been created. Jumping in just to screw with the battles or get xp for yourself is selfish and obnoxious.

But I'm pretty sure you're not the reason TBK left. There were a bunch of things that happened around that battle, and I think all of them together were just the last straw.

After months of Freddy, me, and a few others talking about this idea, getting everyone excited, and then not doing the work (and, really, the bullying) to get everyone lined up, TBK finally decided to do it for us. People refused to change faiths, and didn't bother to help lay out the teams, but then complained about how the teams weren't balanced. They repeatedly demanded that he go back and fix things, kept refusing to do their part or screwing them up, and meanwhile whined about how long it was all taking and threatened to quit if they had to wait 1 more second. And after weeks of dealing with this, Team Red jumped the gun and declared a surprise attack instead of pre-arranging it as planned, and then got self-righteous instead of apologetic when asked why.

It's sort of like the fairytale about Little Red Hen, except that at the end Little Red Hen decided to share the bread with everyone anyway--and then they all complained about the size of their slice and the way it was baked and the fact that the pig got his slice first. (Personally, I'm not surprised by that. We're talking about a community of people who regularly complain, without the slightest hint of irony, that the GAS devs take forever to do anything and then complain that it's ridiculous that we should have to help test new features that were rushed out the door.)

So, I think that the fact that people jumped into the battle and proclaimed their rights to interfere with Holy Risk if they wanted to may have been icing on the cake, but it wasn't the cake.

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7

Sunday, November 29th 2009, 10:22pm

As for me, I'm sick of people whining that it's not fair that they don't know how to build a good order so nobody else should be allowed to. I don't have any interest in intentionally crippling myself like Harrison Bergeron.

I'm willing to participate in Holy Risk because that could be something new and interesting. But if that falls apart, I don't have any interest in tearing apart all of the major orders to make things fair or whatever. I've already done the thing with a bunch of little orders where nobody cares about the outcome of the battles, and it's boring and pointless. And I've also done the xp orders, and I know where that leads, and I have no interest in watching people get into arguments about having to pay for healing because of "xp leeches" taking advantage of them.

W1 is more fun without any of that nonsense, with people still trying to build real orders and fight real battles after two years.

So, if Holy Risk falls apart without TBK to lead it, I'll go back to DWL, or I'll be solo, or I'll leave W4.

8

Sunday, November 29th 2009, 10:35pm

Yeah, ved, but trying to jump into a battle early to "balance" it is a little silly, in my opinion. I mean, you have no idea what the camps will look like later, or if anyone is already slated to be on the way. In the last 5-10 minutes of sign-ups, yes, you can balance a battle, but early on, you're just volunteering blindly.

Especially in a RISK battle where we've asked people to sit out and have stated that we're running a test to see how the two orders balance, it really doesn't help all that much to have other people jumping into the fight. The only reason we didn't have more was because a second battle at the same time drew away a lot of the other volunteers. And the WHITE-BLACK battle later today is discovering just this...a lot of stray volunteers are jumping into the fight.

So why didn't those people sign up for RISK if they wanted to join the fights? Why don't their own orders declare battles? It seems to me that a lot of people want to hold on to the old orders that made W4 what it was, even though what W4 is right now is pretty pathetic. The big orders and many alliances have created a stale environment in which the same battles play out again and again, with few variations, and nobody wants to pull the trigger to make a change. bigbird pulled a pretty dirty stunt in disbanding TTW, even though TTW really wasn't his to disband, but even with that, other orders haven't budged. Why? The excuse that they were waiting for RISK to start might be halfway valid if most of the members in those orders were joining RISK, but so many aren't and yet still pile into the RISK test battles that it makes me wonder why TBK and others spent the time trying to balance the RISK orders. I mean, why try to balance the RISK games if other people are going to join and throw off those balances?

I can understand TBK's and others' frustrations in this respect. At the same time, though, Cas's point about RISK players honoring their old alliances is reasonable, too. If RISK is really going to change the dynamic of W4, then all of the players clinging to the old static W4 that wasn't working well anymore are really defeating the purpose.

But then, I guess, is the purpose of RISK to change W4 or merely to offer a diversion from it? Is RISK trying to be an alternative to W4, as Cas's point seems to imply, or a supplement to it, as TBK argued back? If it's just a supplement, then it probably won't change much in the long run.

What I do know, though, is that as a lvl 97 with only two other lvl 97s in the entire world, I got 15XP in the RED-BLUE battle, and other lvl 90+ people were hauling 45-60 XP, too. The XP wasn't quite as good on the BLUE side, probably reflecting more lower levels for RED and also that RED won the fight. Put ved in the BLUE camp, and I'd guess that both sides would have seen lvl 90+ people earning 40+ XP. Regardless, though, it was a good fight, and much better than I've seen from the old orders except in arranged XP fights in the last several months.

cerno

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9

Monday, November 30th 2009, 12:52am

*out of the loop for RISK.* We've had a team green captain for days (granted it took us a little time because we all have very different play times), the order for maybe a week now? Green team has talked amongst itself on what territories we would like to have. No communication has been going on as to what is going on with Holy Risk. Yet we see battles happening. I had no clue the first battle was a test.

Maybe someone should just tell us what is going on?

10

Monday, November 30th 2009, 7:48am

I think that was part of the problem with the RED-BLUE battle, cerno. People had talked about a test battle in the forum, but there was no communication or planning. In the span of a couple hours, a few RED members decided that this holding pattern of everyone in their orders but nothing happening was boring and that we needed a battle, and so they just declared one, which is part of what annoyed TBK.

Freddy and Belli are apparently currently working on getting the map set up, and until that happens, we're just toying around with test battles.

bigbird/

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11

Tuesday, December 1st 2009, 3:24am

I think for one that this is a bunch of *%#^ . I thought you all smarter than to act this way . As far attacking the blue team i was told to do so falko and i was not asked once why by any of you so saying we whined about it is a lie get tho facts straight please ........

12

Tuesday, December 1st 2009, 5:10am

Sorry, bigbird, but I didn't hear any communication with falco. I just logged in to see a string of messages over the previous couple hours in which Kisuke said that we ought to declare a battle because nothing was happening and this was boring, and others agreeing, and then, when I looked, a battle was already on the board. And obviously, TBK didn't get any message about scheduling it, and a lot of other people didn't know what was up with the battle either because over the next few hours, I was answering a lot of people's questions about what was up with the battle, whether everyone was invited, why we were doing it, whether this was the first official Risk fight, etc.

I was glad we did the fight. I was thinking that we ought to do something like that, and it was a very good battle all in all. I feel badly that TBK got so frustrated during the course of things, and it's sad to see him go, and now Jeeb, too, although for different reasons, I think, but given that I didn't hear anything about the battle until I logged in to see it declared, and that others didn't either, yeah, there were some communication breakdowns.

After declaring, even you, bigbird, said that you thought Kisuke was trying to get you in trouble. :rolleyes:

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13

Tuesday, December 1st 2009, 8:33am

I think for one that this is a bunch of *%#^ . I thought you all smarter than to act this way . As far attacking the blue team i was told to do so falko and i was not asked once why by any of you so saying we whined about it is a lie get tho facts straight please ........
I didn't say you whined, I said you got self-righteous about it. Just as you did here on the forum, in this very post.

bigbird/

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14

Tuesday, December 1st 2009, 11:04pm

I think for one that this is a bunch of *%#^ . I thought you all smarter than to act this way . As far attacking the blue team i was told to do so falko and i was not asked once why by any of you so saying we whined about it is a lie get tho facts straight please ........
I didn't say you whined, I said you got self-righteous about it. Just as you did here on the forum, in this very post.


so please tell me how in both cases i am being self- righteous..(caring only about myself)? to be frank not you or any other asked me why i attacked the blue team when i did other than blert so do you have a clue as to what you are relly talking about ? i dont think you do... i dont think you are dumb but i dont think you have a clue either .if anything i would say you are the one to think yourself as superior to all ! i have never pretended to be better than anyone

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15

Wednesday, December 2nd 2009, 12:17am

"Self-righteous" does not mean "caring only about oneself." It means smug, overly self-assured, defensive, and loudly proclaiming your superiority, especially moral superiority. "I thought you all smarter than to act this way" is an example of a self-righteousness, although not a great one. Trying to imply that you did exactly the right thing and everyone else was lax in their duty is a better example.

But maybe "defensive" would have been a better word. You see a post saying that a wide range of people (including me and Freddy) are to blame, you pick out one sentence that mentions you, and you get hostile and angry about it and assume the whole thing is purely an unwarranted attack on you, and respond without even reading the whole thing. That's the real problem, and you're right, that isn't self-righteousness.

Forge

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16

Wednesday, December 2nd 2009, 5:11pm

Perhaps we should greatly expand the warmup battles. Free for all, any HR team can declare on any others. We'll politely ask non-HR folks to sit out, no blame or recrimination.

In this way we can see which players don't care and will aimlessly vol, which genuinely don't understand, and who has a man-crush on a team (and maybe should be invited).

I think getting all excited and baleeting over this one incident is a bit much, but everyone makes their own decisions.
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17

Wednesday, December 2nd 2009, 11:27pm

Honestly, I think we should just start the Risk game as soon as we can. I have no interest in participating in and dying in a bunch of pointless battles where neither nor anyone else has any interest in who wins or loses. Unless someone wants to give me a ticket for the battle healing, I'll leave Team Blue if that's what we end up doing.
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18

Thursday, December 3rd 2009, 2:01am

I agree. Just start the game. We've got a map, and just need to randomly assign spots on it. Once that is done, let's start attacking.

The Black Knight

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19

Thursday, December 3rd 2009, 2:38am

Hi guys,

First, let me state quite clearly; I didn't leave because of the anything that someone else did. This was/is entirely my decision and solely based on the circumstances going on in my life. Second, let me apologize for not giving a clearer initial explanation (I was way too emotional at the time to do so). If I caused anyone any discomfort, stress, etc., I'm very sorry.

The reason why I'm leaving is because this hasn't been a game for me for quite a long time. For most people here, Holy War is a game that you play. For me, Holy War was my life for at least the last six months. Everything in my life (and I do mean everything) has been put off at times so that I could get a safety fight, do my plunders, respond to posts on the forums, etc. Just this past Thursday, I put Thanksgiving dinner on hold, making my wife and in-laws wait for 20 minutes while I pretended to be sick in the bathroom, desperately trying to get a signal on my Blackberry so that I could heal up and then go to work for three hours. When my wife came knocking on the door to see if I was okay, I came down to dinner, then pretended to get sick again so that I could finally heal up, get a safety fight, and go to work. And this was just one of many such examples.

The amount of time I spent on Holy War was far beyond anything I ever would have guessed. I kept telling my wife that I only spent a few minutes here and there, but I've gotten more work done in these past three days than I've done in an average week and a half. Mondays were traditionally a complete waste, as I'd spend time doing... heck, I don't even know what I did, other than that it was Holy War-related.

Further, all of the drama here was leeching into the rest of my life. I dreaded going into work every Monday, I resented any requests for user support, and all of my nights and weekends were spent slaving over this "game" while I ignored important projects at work. Obsessing over spreadsheets, stats, postings, etc. My typical weekend consisted of a couple hours where the wife would drag me out to shop for groceries. The rest of it was spent doing anything at all on the computer so that I could watch the Shoutbox, my DRs, the forum, etc.

I'll refrain from going into the toll this has taken on my job, but I will say that I used to be the "golden boy" in our corporate IT community. Not so much any more (and I'm being generous), and I think if I'd kept going at the same pace, I likely would have lost my job in a few months.

Anyway...

Saturday night was the trigger. Getting as angry as I did about that battle tripped something off and opened my eyes for the first time in over a year. I realized, quite clearly, that I had to stop. I also realized that it had to be cold turkey. As I've promised before, if I ever left, TBK would be deleted. No selling the account, no giving it away; not only do I not want to open the door to a tixxer, but I don't want him turning into a cow, ever. Beyond that, I've always felt that if someone really wants to get to that level, let them earn it. I did have one friend who I owed a favor to, and I offered him the account with the understanding that it was my strong preference that it be deleted, and he agreed to let it go.

I had originally planned to wait until next Sunday afternoon (after TBK was deleted for good and it would be too late to change my mind) to post this, as I figured I'd be too close to this and still too angry, but seriously... the last three days have been so incredibly relaxed and happy that I have no worries in that regard. I actually looked forward to going to work on Monday, believe it or not (seriously; I have a very cool job with really awesome co-workers and bosses, and I'm an idiot for forgetting that). When I got a voice mail and an email from two separate users, I didn't fly into a rage about "what the [insert your favorite profanity here] do those whiny users want now?" I was actually happy to talk to them, and laughed at the memory of how much that would have irritated me in the past, even just last week.


By the way, Falco; Shannon told me to ask you this. Since I'm finally leaving, she wanted to ask where the Echo and the Bunnymen pictures are, and she also challenged you to finally reveal yourself for who you really are. She's convinced you faked your death in 1998.

Regards,

George

20

Thursday, December 3rd 2009, 2:45pm

Good that you have your life back, TBK. I'm jealous. :)

Mulvers

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21

Thursday, December 3rd 2009, 4:31pm

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

That's the funniest thing I've read all week ....

Farewell TBK and HW ... ne'er the twain shall meet ...

Whatever the f[lip] that means ....

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22

Thursday, December 3rd 2009, 6:26pm

That gives me a great deal of pause.

Go, TBK, and enjoy having your life back.

I'm sorry we all do this (HW) to each other. I really think that while we're all 'enjoying' this, the net effect is negative, since we are all (or at least most of us) neglecting friends/family/real life.
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23

Friday, December 4th 2009, 1:14am

i heard it from Ria, whose KingsAge inbox has been flooded by gendell...

well done.
If you want peace, work for justice -Pope Paul VI

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24

Friday, December 4th 2009, 1:23am

By the way, Falco; Shannon told me to ask you this. Since I'm finally leaving, she wanted to ask where the Echo and the Bunnymen pictures are, and she also challenged you to finally reveal yourself for who you really are. She's convinced you faked your death in 1998.
Sorry, my friend scanned in all the pictures months ago, but hasn't put them online yet. She's almost as much of a slacker as me. Meanwhile, the Echo and the Bunnymen pictures are mostly a blue blur, but there are a few where you can kind of tell it's them. I'll email you the link if we ever get it online.

And didn't you learn anything from Phil? I'm not really Falco, I'm really Adam Ant, still alive, and still touring whenever I don't go off my meds and throw car engines through diner windows.
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Bigger Phil

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25

Friday, December 4th 2009, 10:18pm

bye TBK :-(

26

Sunday, December 6th 2009, 7:02am

Sadness...

A true loss for me personally as a Friend....and for HW in general........ :(

But so glad you got your groove back..... :thumbsup:

27

Tuesday, December 8th 2009, 11:35pm

Sad to see you go and glad to see someone actually got a life, finally :P We shouldnt get obssesed with this game that much! We should learn from TBK and relax abit more.. Now...... I need a SF 8o



The Black Knight

I salute you :thumbsup: