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  • "falcotron" started this thread

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1

Wednesday, January 16th 2008, 11:35am

The mathematics of horseys

Before the server went down for maintenance, someone asked me for a copy of the Python script I used to calculate when to trade in a horse. Copy the source code below, paste it into Notepad, save it as C:\holywar.py, install Python, fire up a DOS prompt, then run it like this:

C:\> C:\Python25\python.exe C:\holywar.py 15 15 15 3 3 3 3000 5 5 5 5000

It will respond:

[32, 32, 31] 22874 22811

This means that if you have a Welsh (3-3-3 for 3000gp) currently at 15-15-15, and you buy a Rottaller (5-5-5 for 5000gp), until you've spent 22811gp to raise the Rottaller to 32-32-31, it would have been cheaper to stay with the Welsh. (But from then on, you're saving money.)

Source code

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#!/usr/bin/env python
"""holywar.py

Simple tools to figure out the value of stats in the game Holy-War. You can
import the module for interactive use, or run it as a script (see usage).

In general, horribly inefficient algorithms are used because the meaning of
the code is more obvious this way, and it can still answer any reasonable
question in under a second."""

import itertools

def statprice(stat, start = None, original = 1):
    """statprice(stat[, start[, original]]) -- cost to raise a stat to level N

    The cost of raising your attack from 19 to 20 is just statprice(20).
    The cost of raising a Welsh from 10 to 20 is statprice(20, 10, 3)."""
    if start is None: start = stat - 1
    return sum((i - original + 1) * (i - original + 1)
               for i in xrange(start, stat))

def statsprice(stats, starts = None, originals = None):
    """statsprice((stat,...)[, (start,...)[, (original,...)]]) -- cost for all

    Getting to all 10s from scratch costs statsprice((10,10,10,10,10)). Raising
    a Welsh from 10s to 20s is statsprice((20,20,20), (10,10,10), (3,3,3)). To
    buy a Welsh and raise it to 20s is statsprice((20,20,20), (3,3,3)) + 3000."""
    if starts is None: starts = (1 for i in stats)
    if originals is None: originals = starts
    return sum(statprice(*i) for i in itertools.izip(stats, starts, originals))

def breakeven(stats, starts, value, newstarts, newvalue):
    """breakeven(stats, start, value, newstarts, newvalue) -- stats, old, new

    If you have a Welsh at all 15s, and you're considering upgrading to a
    Rottaller, try breakeven((15,15,15), (3,3,3), 3000, (5,5,5), 5000). The
    results will be (32,32,31), 22874, 22811. That means that until you reach
    32-32-31, after 22811gp, it would have been cheaper staying with the Welsh
    (assuming you get 75% of the Welsh's value in the stalls)."""
    bestats = list(stats)
    tradecost = newvalue - value * 3 / 4
    while True:
        for i in range(len(bestats)):
            bestats[i] += 1
            oldcost = statsprice(bestats, stats, starts)
            newcost = statsprice(bestats, newstarts)
            if oldcost > newcost + tradecost:
                return bestats, oldcost, newcost + tradecost

def usage(arg0):
    import sys, os.path
    arg0 = os.path.basename(arg0)
    print """usage: %s A D S A0 D0 S0 V0 AN DN SN VN

Determine the break-even point for training a horse retailing for V0 and
starting with A0-D0-S0 stats that's currently at A-D-S vs. buying and training
a new horse retailing for VN and starting with AN-DN-SN. For example, if you
have a Welsh (3-3-3, 3000gp) at 15-15-15, and you're considering a Rottaller
(5-5-5, 5000gp), run

  $ %s 15 15 15 3 3 3 3000 5 5 5 5000

The result will be 

  (32, 32, 31) 22874 22811

This means that until you get to 32-32-31, the Welsh will be cheaper; from
that point on, the Rottaller will be cheaper. It will cost 22811 to buy the
Rottaller (including selling the Welsh for 75%%) and train it by the time you
reach this point.

Given silly values, the script may run in an infinite loop, set your CPU on
fire, or rape your grandmother. It should take only a fraction of a second, so
it will be obvious this is happening. You have been warned.""" % (arg0, arg0)
    sys.exit(2)

def fixargs(args):
  return [args[0]] + [int(arg) for arg in args[1:]]

def main(argv):
    if len(argv) == 6:
        stats = (argv[1], argv[1], argv[1])
        starts = (argv[2], argv[2], argv[2])
        newstarts = (argv[4], argv[4], argv[4])
        b = breakeven(stats, starts, argv[3], newstarts, argv[5])
    elif len(argv) == 12:
        b = breakeven(argv[1:4], argv[4:7], argv[7], argv[8:11], argv[11])
    else:
        usage(argv[0])
    print '%s %s %s' % b

if __name__ == '__main__':
    import sys
    main(fixargs(sys.argv))
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "falcotron" (Jul 13th 2009, 5:59pm)


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2

Wednesday, January 16th 2008, 12:00pm

More math: the value of protective gear (or lack thereof)

Weapons and horses are definitely a good investment at mid levels (the common wisdom says to wait for the Cross Sword and the Welsh, and that's probably pretty close). But what about armor, shields, and helmets? I'm pretty sure they're next to worthless.

Let's look at the first three helmets. For 500gp, you can get +1 defense; for 1000, +2; for 1500, +3, with no penalties. Nice, right?

With an (unmodified) defense stat of 20, it only costs 400 to increase it once, 841 to increase it twice, 1325 to increase it three times. In fact, no helmet is worth buying until you've reached 22 defense (at which point all but the cheapest are a slight savings), and buffed up your horse appropriately. That doesn't happen until somewhere around level 12.

And raised stats are permanent; they don't later have to be sold back for at most 3/4ths their value, as the helmet does.

If you do the math on shields and armor (which are a bit more complicated because most of them reduce your agility and/or stamina, and you usually want more agility than defense...), you get similar results, but even worse.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something, but I don't think so.

There is one minor advantage to gear: When someone looks at you in the 1-on-1 search report, they can't see what gear you have. If you had a really low defense and awesome armor, that might occasionally entice someone into attacking you and losing. But I doubt that's a good strategy. In fact, it's probably more valuable to scare off potential muggers on the fence about you than to trick them into attacking.

Not to mention how silly a Saracen looks running around in a horned helmet. Which is, of course, exactly why I wear one. And my character in the game, too.
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3

Thursday, January 17th 2008, 11:53pm

TYVM! This is just what I'm looking for . :thumbsup:

~ The Enlighten Ignorant ~

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Monday, January 21st 2008, 12:13am

Tricky one this but i think i have a strong argument.

I have thought the same thing but you need to think about it in the right way.

Dont buy weapons or armour for fighting purposes because if you loose you gain the experience point/s for it.

Elixers, Armour, Weapons should be considered to be a saving method and nothing else really because it prevents the enemy from stealing your gold. Just think how much lovely cash you have invested in those shiney new toys you have just bought and one day when your character is well a well hard level 25+ you will be loaded and be able to buy some really cool stuff and possibly make a bit of cash in the arena along the way.

Buying expensive equiptment that is way above you level which will have no benefit at all is ok.....just dont use it, when that must-buy purchase comes up you will be able to snap it up asap. hope this sheds so light. 8)

The only problem purchase i think is horses because when sold off you get much much less than what you have invested. Also buying a better horse will cost you loads. However i only ever owned 1 horse.

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Monday, January 21st 2008, 12:25pm

Going naked to intentionally lose battles is just silly. You get less experience by losing than by winning. (1xp vs. higher level, 0 vs. equal instead of 2 vs. higher, 1 vs. equal.) Also, you're going to take more damage when you get attacked, which means either more elixirs, more risk of losing your safety fights, or more time doing nothing.

You can use gear to stash money, but it's not really worth it until higher levels. If you have 1500gp lying around, unless all of your stats are above 38, or you're desperately trying to save 2000gp for something, there's no reason to stash it--just spend it on stats or something you need.

Even when you do need to stash large amounts of gold, don't buy armor; a cross sword or fouchard will sell much faster than anything except a 90gp or 450gp elixir (and you might even be able to sell it for retail or above to a non-premium player).

Finally, as for horses: read the first post in the thread; it will tell you exactly how much "loads" is.
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6

Tuesday, February 12th 2008, 1:23pm

Sorry if this is obvious but am I right in thinking then that when you trade a horse in the stats you have on your old horse transfer to your new one? I understand the point of the little program but not the results/execution! ;(

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Tuesday, February 12th 2008, 2:15pm

No. When you sell your old horse, it reverts to its original stats. And then you buy a new horse, and it starts at its original stats. But of course that new horse's original stats are much higher (unless you're not very smart).

Let's say I have a 27-27-27 Welsh, which started at 3-3-3, and I buy a Brabant, which starts at 12-17-17. Whoever bought my Welsh only gets 3-3-3, not 27-27-27. And my Brabant is only 12-17-17, not 27-27-27 (or 37-42-42). If I want to get it to 27-27-27, I have to train it. That costs another 1389gp (1^2+...+14^2 + 1^2+...+9^2 + 1^2+...+9^2).

But to raise the Brabant to 28-28-28 will only cost another 425gp (15^2 + 10^2 + 10^2), while the Welsh would have cost 625gp to raise just a single stat.

Now the benefits become obvious. Besides the fact that the Brabant looks much cooler than the Welsh, I can spend my leftover cash at the end of the day raising my horse's stats, instead of wasting 15% of my cash and minutes of my time as an elixir salesman. (Of course first I have to spend a week of hard work as an elixir salesman to raise 25000gp.)

Eventually, the cheaper increases will make up for the more expensive horse. The point of the program is to find out when "eventually" is:

$ ./holywar.py 27 27 27 3 3 3 3000 12 17 17 25000
[41, 41, 40] 40913 40529

So, at 41-41-40, I'll have finally broken even on the Brabant, after spending 40913gp. And the differences quickly get dramatic from here. To get the Welsh to 50-50-50 would cost another 51547gp; the Brabant will only cost 26298gp.

P.S., Careful readers may notice that I didn't get the Rottaller back at level 15. If I had gotten the Rottaller and raised it to 32-32-31, my breakeven point would now have been 47-47-46, at 54930gp. But I'd also have had a 32-32-31 horse instead of a 27-27-27. Of course I'd also have spent more on my horse, which means my stats would be lower. Maybe I should have become a CPA instead of a programmer, and I'd be able to figure out my budget....
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Tuesday, February 12th 2008, 3:01pm

Thanks, that's very useful - definitely see the logic there & as my Welsh is hovering around the mid 20's in stats now it looks like the time to trade approaches (or the time to stop training him until I can afford to trade him!), when I get to the relevant level of course.
Helpful as ever Falco, cheers ;)

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Tuesday, February 12th 2008, 3:24pm

Further thoughts on defensive gear

There's one major advantage to defensive gear that I didn't take into account.

I've been feeling dumb for upgrading my armor so many times in W2, and then I found myself doing the same thing in W3. Then I figured out why I was doing it: It's the only way to stash money that actually helps you.

Yes, you lose a bit more money selling your horned helmet for a pilleus than buying a 1000hp elixir to sell later, but not that much more. So, you've stashed almost the same amount of money toward that war scythe or Rottaler, but you've got an extra +2 defense while it's stashed. That's actually a pretty good deal.

Plus, when you get to the higher levels, you'll look like something off an early 80s heavy metal album cover, which has to be worth something, right?
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Tuesday, February 12th 2008, 3:54pm

That's my sole motivation right there - to look like I could stand alongside Man-o-war! :thumbsup:

11

Wednesday, February 13th 2008, 3:10pm

Falco - your analysis is great!
Thanks!

12

Thursday, March 13th 2008, 12:39am

Went from a Welsh to an Arab horse so any chance you could run this on my Arab horse if you have time? I don't really understand how to do it & would be interested to know what level it's cheaper for me to upgrade this time.

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Thursday, March 13th 2008, 2:00am

What exactly do you want to know about your Arab horse? How much it'll cost to get to the stats your Welsh used to have? How much you've spent on it so far? When you'll finally be ahead on that trade? If you tell me your old Welsh's stats and your current Arab's stats, I can answer any of those. Anything more complicated... well, I need to know what you want to know.
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Saturday, March 15th 2008, 2:19pm

Sorry should have been clearer - if my Arab is at 40-36-39, at what point is it cheaper to upgrade to a new horse rather than keep putting money into arab horse stats? In the same way that you compared upgrading from a welsh to a brabant earlier. Hope that makes sense!

I should perhaps note that I don't see the point in upgrading to the next available horse as by the time I have trained that I will in all likelihood have outgrown it so I'm probably looking 2 or 3 horses down the line.

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Saturday, March 15th 2008, 5:53pm

I usually upgrade my horse between 13-17 lvls, and try and keep training my horses to a minimum so that i don't waste gold on it, however in w2 i have spent alot on my horse as i need to keep up with the likes of Underground and Si Murray.

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Thursday, March 20th 2008, 9:51am

I ran the numbers on a variety of possible upgrade combinations (chosen randomly), and I think I have some idea what the best horse upgrades are, and how much you should ideally raise their stats.

Best path:
  • Level 8: Welsh. (A Donkey is almost as good.)
  • Level 9-19: Raise to 34-34-34. (Or 33-32-32 for the Donkey.)
  • Level 20: Einsiedler. (If you miss this, you can raise the Welsh to 35-34-34 and get an Arab at 23.)
  • Level 21-32: Raise to 45-42-45 (or 47-43-46 for the Arab)
  • Level 33: Anglo-Norman.
  • Level 34-39: Raise to 53-49-53.
  • Level 40: English.
  • Level 41-59: Raise to 72-69-71.
  • Level 60: Percheron.
  • Level 61-69: Raise to 82-73-82.
  • Level 70: Jutlander.

Cheaper path (you'll be seriously lagging at a few points, but ahead in the high 50s):
  • Level 8: Welsh. (A Donkey is almost as good.)
  • Level 9-19: Raise to 34-34-34. (Or 33-32-32 for the Donkey.)
  • Level 20: Einsiedler.
  • Level 21-36: Raise to 46-43-45
  • Level 37: Shire.
  • Level 38-49: Raise to 54-50-54
  • Level 50: Akkal-Tekkiner.
  • Level 51-69: Raise to 79-72-79.
  • Level 70: Jutlander.

Camper path:
  • Level 10: Fjord.
  • Level 10-10: Raise to 36-35-35.
  • Level 11-18: Spend nothing.
  • Level 20-23: Arab, as soon as you see one used (or reach 23), then as above.

So, how well do I follow my own advice?

On W1, I inherited a level-36 with a 50-47-50 Donkey, and am now level 38 with a 50-47-50 Donkey. I will be replacing it with a Shire if I don't hit level 40 soon, an English otherwise.

On W2, I stepped off the path with a Brabant at level 25 and am now level 37; I think I should hold onto that until the English, but I'll be lagging a bit for the next few levels.

On W3, I have an Arab at level 29, so I'm doing fine.
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Thursday, March 20th 2008, 11:51am

I ran the numbers on a variety of possible upgrade combinations (chosen randomly), and I think I have some idea what the best horse upgrades are, and how much you should ideally raise their stats.

Best path:
  • Level 8: Welsh. (A Donkey is almost as good.)
  • Level 9-19: Raise to 34-34-34. (Or 33-32-32 for the Donkey.)
  • Level 20: Einsiedler. (If you miss this, you can raise the Welsh to 35-34-34 and get an Arab at 23.)
  • Level 21-32: Raise to 45-42-45 (or 47-43-46 for the Arab)
  • Level 33: Anglo-Norman.
I levelled up by the time I got sufficient money to buy the Arab and ended up getting the Brabant instead. At what point does it become cheaper to get the Anglo Norman?
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18

Saturday, March 22nd 2008, 4:26am

Camper's horse strategy, the more ignorant way: mine

Oh boy. Time to revisit this old thread and time to reflect. My strategy is a bit different. Mind you, I'm a late starter that has the benefit of hunting for second hand items.

w1:
  • Donkey (from lvl 8 - 15, 15/15/15 stats) Just buying the donkey because of the good discount. I was planning to change to rottaler-15 ASAP since lvl 10. But no one was selling :( . I had to rely on 40s personal stats to win fights.
  • Rottaler (from lvl 15 - 28, 30/30/30 stats) Finally, found one @ the stall. Then I started looking for a 30 or 33 since lv. 25.
  • English thoroughbred (from lvl 28 to 60, 70/70/70 stats, probably will go higher if need be) Yes, I'm the SOB that grabbed the dirt cheap 40k English a few nights ago :D . I was originally planning to get a 30 or 33 and boost the horse's stats to 50/50/50, then later upgrade again @ 40 with the same goal of making its stats 70/70/70. I got lucky to be able to skip the 30/33 process.
  • Perche/60 - no hope of second hand purchase. The stable people will get their money at last. This is ideal I hope. If I can find a used one by this time, that means my w1 char is lacking lvling speed and is in more trouble stats wise.
Horses usage in level: 8, 13, 32 (but this is an extreme case)

w2:
  • Donkey (from lvl 8 - 10, 15/15/15 stats) I was hovering for a while in w2, knew I wouldn't want to waste gold on a donkey, finally found a discounted rottaler for sale during hovering. Maybe if I hover longer I may just save enough elixirs to gun for a 20/Einsiedler or 23/Arab. But, I was already itching to advance. I thought about getting a 17/East Frisian. But I only saw it for sale once, and I'd had not enough saving @ that time :( .
  • Rottaler (from lvl 10 - 26, 30/30/30 stats) Grabbed one @ the stall on 10, compensated the -5/-5/-5 penalties by immediately pumping its stat to the intended max: 30. Then I started looking for a 30 or 33 since lv. 25.
  • Alpine (from lvl 26 to 40, 50/50/50 stats) Again, swallowing the penalty pills for the hope of long run gold saving.
  • English thoroughbred (from lvl 40 to 60) This can get tricky. I don't see my luck in w1 will repeat here. I may have to start forking gold over to the stables early. I think most people with 40 horse are planning keep their horse all the way to 60.
  • Perche/60 same as w1.
Horses usage in level: 3, 16, 14 (this is closer to what I think is the norm for campers. Hard to predict the exact number since the exact levels of horse changing rely on the mercy of the stall).

Change horse every 15 lvl average sounds sensible to me.

~ The Enlighten Ignorant ~

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Saturday, March 22nd 2008, 4:49am

I levelled up by the time I got sufficient money to buy the Arab and ended up getting the Brabant instead. At what point does it become cheaper to get the Anglo Norman?

Yeah, I did the same thing. It depends on how much you've statted up your Brabant, but if you've spent a decent amount, I'm not sure it's worth upgrading to the Anglo-Norman, because it won't become a profitable trade until it's already time for the next horse.

Here's my suggestion:

If you've been stingy with the horse stats (high 30s/low 40s), go for the Anglo-Norman. If you've overspent, as I did (high 40s/low 50s), wait for the English. Otherwise, get the Shire and go down the cheap path, or stat a little more and wait for the English.
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Monday, May 12th 2008, 3:35pm

Impressive

That's my sole motivation right there - to look like I could stand alongside Man-o-war! :thumbsup:
Wow. I didn't know there were too many people still alive who are fans of or even know about Man-O-War.

Bravo. :thumbsup:
~Zophiel Stone____|~Riddick ___ 8) ___|~Deucalion ________|~Zophiel_________| ~Zophæl__________|
OM of [FEAR]___W2_ |OM of [FURYA]__W1_|AC of [GA]___W7____|AC of [CLUB]_W10_|OM of [CORE]___W12_|

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21

Wednesday, August 13th 2008, 10:01pm

Question and a bump

This is one of the most useful threads in the forum. I have had a few questions thrown my way and it probably is good to bump this thread up for new people.



Questions:

Are there any negatives associated with buying a horse well above your current level? Suppose you have the cash and can buy and train a shore when you are level 20. (I have seen this happen, not quite this extreme, but it is possible)

Has anyone verified the assertion that the horse only fights in the first round from the stats balance thread?

22

Wednesday, August 13th 2008, 11:05pm

Are there any negatives associated with buying a horse well above your current level? Suppose you have the cash and can buy and train a shore when you are level 20. (I have seen this happen, not quite this extreme, but it is possible)
From what I understand, it's just like with weapons and armor, when you buy a horse that is above your level it deducts 1 stat point for every level difference. (The following is not for you Vedauwoo but for new players that might not know what that means.) Since the shire is a level 37 horse and your character is a level 20 player, the stats of the shire will be reduced buy 17 give it base stats of 3-10-10. Honestly thats not bad seeing as the level 20 premium horse has base stats of 9-13-13. It would only cost 261 gold to boost the stats to where the deductions would equal out to have the same base stat values as the level 20 horse. Just like when you have higher level armor/weapons/etc the deductions don't show unless you look at your stats Totals. That is where the stats would be deducted from.

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Wednesday, August 13th 2008, 11:22pm

RE: Question and a bump

Are there any negatives associated with buying a horse well above your current level? Suppose you have the cash and can buy and train a shore when you are level 20. (I have seen this happen, not quite this extreme, but it is possible)
Bloop is exactly right; horses, like any other gear, have a -1/level penalety to the stats they affect (ATT, DEF, and STA).

Also, I have seen someone with a level-33 Anglo-Norman at level 10. If I remember correctly, I bought a level-20 Einsiedler at level-3 in one of the Spanish worlds. Even if you're going to camp for a long time, the cost associated with these penalties isn't that high, and the benefit of not having to upgrade your horse until well after you've started leveling is huge.

Quoted

Has anyone verified the assertion that the horse only fights in the first round from the stats balance thread?
No, this is just a guess that a few players have recently come up with, to try to explain the results of a few fights, and the general feeling that horses don't do as much as they should.

On the other hand, Mavia has explicitly told us that horse stats work identically to your own stats. And I believe either she or one of the other admins told us that it's the "total stats" (as seen on the Inventory page) that go into the combat formulas. So, if this assertion is true, it's a serious bug that the admins don't know about. (Of course that isn't impossible, but it would be at least a little surprising.)
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24

Thursday, August 14th 2008, 7:34am

I had a little different approach when came subject "horse". In W1 I had a donkey, a level 20, a level 30 and now I have a level 40. I will change it at 70, skipping the 60. I upgrade the horse's stats until the point that their costs are half from the character stats price - with a good character, you'll get powerful horse - This "rule of thumb" - passed to me by friends from german worlds - gives me a balanced character imo.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Derzis" (Aug 14th 2008, 8:02am)


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Thursday, August 14th 2008, 8:00am

I've heard the same rule of thumb. I did some more complicated math, and Ranock did some different complicated math, and it turns out that if you're anywhere from halfway-decent to pretty-good, the three all end up pretty close to each other.
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Saturday, August 16th 2008, 9:33pm

ok dunno if my horse path so far is the right one and if i am planning it the right way (i am just going with intuition and advice from a very strong player)

  • lvl 8 -welsh
  • lvl 8-25 train welsh till 22-22-22
  • lvl 25 - get brabant at rock bottom for 20K
  • train brabant to 50 - 46 - 49 and leave it be
  • get an akhal from erialc when she gets to level 50 :D
ok it is worth mentioning that i have always lagged in levels since i joined late (2 months after the start of the world roughly) and i camped for a month or so, i left camp at personal stats 43s if remember correctly. so i dotn think this path is very advisable for all players.


however in w5 i did a similar thing, only that i got the brabant at level 30 since i was a bit short of the alpine and i didnt find it to be more helpful than the brabant anyway. i guess my next upgrade will still be either lvl 40 or 50, since the level 45 horse is so overpriced for what you get.

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Saturday, August 16th 2008, 10:12pm

Totally stupid player here

When I rejoined world 4 as Lillian, I was compelled to play every angle ... no equipment save a fouchard through level 20, Welsh at lowest price from stall, buying high-end equipment cheap and selling at highest possible prices for profit, and doing running hauls through the levels 18 or more hours daily. I also weighed every purchase statistically for optimum value. All this penny-pinching imperative sucked every drop of enjoyment out of the game for me.

When World 5 opened, I began following the same path as Lillian had in w4. I lasted a week before abject lack of enjoyment and a few lesser important factors compelled me to delete. A month later, following a second restart in w5, I started a new character (Skeeter) that was much less dependent on mathematics than following my heart - for instance, I bought a white horse because I wanted it, not because it made the most sense. Ironically, Skeeter was doing just fine until I deleted for personal reasons.

I accept that many players glean more enjoyment from the game by following strict statistical paradigms, but I posit others can find equal satisfaction by simply making agreeable purchases and following courses of action that please them.

In a game that has no winners, or many, depending on your personal expectations, I often think too much emphasis is placed on making the correct purchases.

Yet, I'm just as convinced someone will always find a way to suck the fun out of any game.

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Saturday, August 16th 2008, 10:32pm

RE: Totally stupid player here

I accept that many players glean more enjoyment from the game by following strict statistical paradigms, but I posit others can find equal satisfaction by simply making agreeable purchases and following courses of action that please them.

In a game that has no winners, or many, depending on your personal expectations, I often think too much emphasis is placed on making the correct purchases.


Yet, I'm just as convinced someone will always find a way to suck the fun out of any game.

Janet
No, is not true. What you read here (Forum I mean) is coming from hands-on experience, and trust me, is all based on the will to play the game for fun.
I don't want to enter in debate with you, but who is saying to not buy the white horse if you want it?

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Saturday, August 16th 2008, 10:50pm

Oh, goodness, I don't want a fight either ... that's the last thing on my mind. I readily admit (and so stated) that some players derive immense satisfaction from playing a more empirically based game.

Just so you don't think I'm too cavalier about the game, you should know I maintain "cow" lists that would probably impress the most ardent tactical military targeting analyst. I even go so far as doing trend analysis on my cows, calculating their rates of pay-off and individualized targeting based on their respective tolerance for 12-, 24-, and 36-hour rotational hits, with the goal of deriving the most gold from each cow. This probably seems way over the top for some players, but it's an aspect from which I gain much satisfaction.

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Sunday, August 17th 2008, 12:00am

Oh, goodness, I don't want a fight either ... that's the last thing on my mind. I readily admit (and so stated) that some players derive immense satisfaction from playing a more empirically based game.

Just so you don't think I'm too cavalier about the game, you should know I maintain "cow" lists that would probably impress the most ardent tactical military targeting analyst. I even go so far as doing trend analysis on my cows, calculating their rates of pay-off and individualized targeting based on their respective tolerance for 12-, 24-, and 36-hour rotational hits, with the goal of deriving the most gold from each cow. This probably seems way over the top for some players, but it's an aspect from which I gain much satisfaction.

Janet
Whatever makes you happy ;)

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Sunday, August 17th 2008, 12:15am

So's yer ol'man, Derzis 8o

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Monday, August 18th 2008, 5:28am

I've heard the same rule of thumb. I did some more complicated math, and Ranock did some different complicated math, and it turns out that if you're anywhere from halfway-decent to pretty-good, the three all end up pretty close to each other.

Yeah :( I did calculus, by comparing the area beneath the curve (integrals). Someone needs to take me outback and shoot me :(

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Tuesday, November 25th 2008, 4:26am

I said I would resurrect this thread, and now I have a good reason.

If someone has a Rottaler from level 15, which is the premium one, how high would be a reasonable level to train it's stats to before upgrading? How high would it's stats have to be trained to be considered overspending? How high is just ludicrous? At what level would it be wise to upgrade the horse?

Say just for the sake of argument that the owner is considering whether or not to camp. Would there be a difference in the answers to these questions if the person decides to camp? If so, what is the difference?
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Noble" (Nov 25th 2008, 5:12am)


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Tuesday, November 25th 2008, 5:02am

If someone has a Rottaler from level 15, which is the premium one, how high would be a reasonable level to train it's stats to before upgrading? How high would it's stats have to be trained to be considered overspending? How high is just ludicrous? At what level would it be wise to upgrade the horse?
The answer to all of those questions is, "It depends."

Figure out when you want to upgrade. That may be level 25, 33, 40, or even higher. How often to upgrade is a personal choice, and you have to consider all of the factors everyone's mentioned in this thread. (And there may be other factors important to you--maybe you like black horses, or you refuse to get an Anglo-Norman because you hate the Normans, or whatever. That's fine, too.)

Until you start approaching that level, increase a horse stat whenever it costs less than half the price of your own stats. Or you can do a slightly different version--if you have the gold for a personal stat, get it; if not, increase a horse stat whenever it costs less than half your personal stats. It works out mostly the same either way. As you get close to your upgrade point, start slacking off on the horse stats. That's it; that will get you through the entire game well enough, if you don't want to do calculus or run simulations.
Say just for the sake of argument that the owner is considering whether or not to camp. Would there be a difference in the answers to these questions if the person decides to camp? If so, what is the difference?
Yes, that's definitely one of the things it depends on.

If you're camping at level 15, you're obviously not trying to optimize your character; you have some other motivation that you'll have to explain before anyone can help you accomplish it.

And if you've only camping for a week to make the dash to 15 easier, it's not a major issue how you spend on horse stats during that week.

So, I'll assume you're going to be level 10 or lower for a while to come. The extra penalties for a higher-level horse aren't worth it, so you want to train the horse much higher than if you were racing to level 40 as fast as possible. For example, an English T-bred at level 10 starts at -1/-8/-1, which I believe means you have 1/1/1 until you raise Def 10 times and the other stats twice. You're better off with the Rot, which is at least 0/0/0.

But then you're even better off with a Fjord at 4/3/3, Frisian at 7/4/8, or Eins at 8/3/8. There is no level at which the Rot is the best horse. And, except for the Holstein, there's no other horse in the game for which this is true. (Although the Arab, Persian T-bred, and Arabian T-Bred are no better than the next horse at any level, at least they're no worse.)

But now that you've got the Rot, assuming you've already dumped some gold into, stick with it until you're ready for an upgrade big enough to be worthwhile.

And, although I haven't done the math, I'll bet the half-your-personal-stat-cost rule still works pretty well for campers.
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Tuesday, November 25th 2008, 5:08am

I said I would resurrect this thread, and now I have a good reason.

If someone has a Rottaler from level 15, which is the premium one, how high would be a reasonable level to train it's stats to before upgrading? How high would it's stats have to be trained to be considered overspending? How high is just ludicrous? At what level would it be wise to upgrade the horse?

Say just for the sake of argument that the owner is considering whether or not to camp. Would there be a difference in the answers to these questions if the person decides to camp? If so, what is the difference?

No, this is not related to my W1 character.
I bought a Rottaler in W6 because was at a price of a Welsh + some pinuts in stall. I was thinking to change it at 25, but changed my mind and I will keep it until the moment will "hurt" me. I predict 30-33 horse in this world. 33 actually because you will replace ur horse in 2-3 days of hauling and work and plunders max. I might think 37 if are not guys with big horses around. Always when you change a horse think how many days you will be weaker than you had the horse. Normally, a Rottaler is ok for stats around 35-40. 40+ stats you start to lose money. So, my opinion, check around and as long as your competitors are not with stats for horse majority 50 (a level 20 goes well for 45-48) a 25 (close to 60) and what you pay on horse stats is under half from your price for equivalent personal stat, keep it. There is no recipe, even if Falco is saying each 20 level change the horse. World conditions will make you to take the right decision. If you go for Dragon Sword make your calculations and decide 25 horse or 33. That's for a normal player.
A camper will always get a horse above 20. For a level 10, a level 20 horse is like a Welsh more or less but with cheapest stats - if I am remembering right are like 200g difference in stats cost per horse per level. So for a camper, will be 600-800 cheaper to train a 20 instead a welsh. Is true will lose the difference between levels, but is not a problem. Is already solved when 20 become a welsh and starts moving up.
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Tuesday, November 25th 2008, 5:11am

Sorry I did not volunteer enough information initially.

It is for a W6 character who is level 31, and I think that the top level in that world is level 34 currently. Maybe...?

The horse is questionable.*

*Horse stats are currently 27/27/27. Bought and trained by previous owner, not me.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Noble" (Nov 26th 2008, 4:47am)


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Tuesday, November 25th 2008, 5:16am

Sorry I did not volunteer enough information initially.

It is for a W6 character who is level 31, and I think that the top level in that world is level 34 currently. Maybe...?

The horse is questionable.*

*Horse stats are currently 27,27,27. Trained by previous owner, not me.
Same deal: First figure out whether you want to upgrade at 33, 37, 40, or even later. If you're going to keep it to 40, start raising its stats, because you've got a while to go, and those 27s are low. If you're going to trade it in at 33, stop spending on the stats.
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Tuesday, November 25th 2008, 5:19am

Sorry I did not volunteer enough information initially.

It is for a W6 character who is level 31, and I think that the top level in that world is level 34 currently. Maybe...?

The horse is questionable.*

*Horse stats are currently 27,27,27. Trained by previous owner, not me.
You have room to train it then. Check the char's stats on ur level and above and you decide. I would go for 33, but is just a problem of savings/stats/armory. It comes with 25 and you have 27 now. with 10g you have the same stats. True, is a difference of 35k you must obtain in 2 levels, but I bought horse even if was levels behind.
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Tuesday, November 25th 2008, 5:26am

I bought a Rottaler in W6 because was at a price of a Welsh + some pinuts in stall.
Yeah, that's always a good reason to get a horse. At lower levels, where the competition is brutal, a few thousand gp can mean the difference between low-stat victim and high-stat victimizer. Saving 5000gp today at a cost of 10000gp tomorrow... well, it depends on what you expect tomorrow to bring; you can't just say "you wasted 5000gp" without looking at the bigger picture.
A camper will always get a horse above 20. For a level 10, a level 20 horse is like a Welsh more or less but with cheapest stats
At level 10, the Eins is 3/-1/3. Not quite as good as a 3/3/3 Welsh, but close enough--especially when you consider the free increases you're going to get for the first 10 levels when you do decide to stop camping and race for levels.

So yeah, most campers do that, and it makes sense.
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Wednesday, November 26th 2008, 4:08am

History repeats itself. Or does it?

If training this horse in W6 goes anything like training my first horse in W1 it will probably end up with all of it's stats at 49 or 50 by the time I upgrade it.

For the record, in W1 my first horse was also from level 15, but it was the non-premium Holsteiner. It's stats ended up at 49/48/47 when I upgraded, so an extrapolation of 49/49/49 for this one would be roughly equivalent to that one. Pretty good horse, despite the fact that I over-spent on it, and as a result will probably never be able to break even ever again without over-spending. A sad reality...
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