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1

Monday, December 1st 2008, 9:49pm

Sore loosers

I just wanted to say that I think people spoil the game by being sore loosers. ELITE just had a battle against an order that reacted like little children. surprising for one of the most powerful christian world 6 orders. their OM was sporting enough, but the AC got fussy, self-righteous, accusatory, and did his best to ruin the battle to the point where he even asked for no support...how lame!

it was far from a perfect battle, I'll admit. these were the problems:

ELITE was allied with Dragon and SoV, who are also allies of our target. This was misconstrued as us intentionally cutting off their support. Apparently people don't realize that WE lost the support the same as them...sad. it's so easy to figure that out but no one managed apparently.

The real reason we attacked them was simple- we wanted a battle, they were EXACTLY the same size as we were, and EVERY other order worth attacking also had one or two of our allies on their list, so why should anyone feel singled out? it would be impossible to find a target that doesn't share a common ally!

Other problems:

I accidentally hired Zhou Yun, a level 27 Dragon who was in the stall for less then 400 gold. first I thought my substitute AC had done it, but realized later it was my mistake. I didn't check the order tag before pressing hire. Granted it was a mistake but hardly worth getting bent out of shape over... 1 level 27 won't turn the tide of a battle. I appologized and had the appology flung in my face. I was accused of being a liar and a cheater. read on... it gets better!

I bent over backwards to make amends for my error. I even PMed DonReality IV, giving him and his order [SoV] FULL permission to join the battle in favor of our opponents. SoV is a powerful order, packing the most powerful christian tixxer in world 6. I told the enemy of my efforts to make amends and was again accused of being a liar- despite the fact that several of SoV were sitting in their camp, and if they had bothered to ask, DonReality IV would have confirmed my story.... this isn't over...

I made a friend of mine temporary AC so he could spy on camp. he went to camp... and disappeared for the next 7 hours, without spying and without returning my post. it made me a bit nervous to not have eyes on the enemy. he returned 7 hours later, and before returning my post as AC, he hired contrarion (another Dragon) and LORD Messiah but he did so without asking for consent and without orders to do so... AGAIN I was blamed, and when I told the story, (I PMed the AC about it in an attempt to come clean) the enemy AC again started slandering in the SB, calling me a liar, and bringing up 2-month old grievances...AGAIN ignoring the fact that I had raised him three times the support that I cost him.

All that to say, ELITE's allies rallied in full force, we SMASHED them, and I wasn't the least bit sorry. Such poor sportsmanship is shameful and childish. Well done to their OM for not stooping to the same level as his AC. I would have stuck to my tradition of congratulating their side for a good fight and being worthy opponents... if I thought that was true. They were NOT worthy opponents, although they had the potential to be. I have always seen a level of respect between opponents, but not that day. I was willing to give them all the respect in the world. too bad they threw courtesy and good fun to the wind. I hope this doesn't become a trend..sad sad sad :thumbdown:

This post has been edited 5 times, last edit by "Jabbar Ibn Hilal" (2nd Dec 2008, 12:05am)


Black Wind

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2

Monday, December 1st 2008, 11:09pm

I thought that we covered all this in PMs, but apparently you would like to continue the discussion in the forum.


It was not my AC who asked for no volunteers, it was I. I am surprised that you messed that point up since you were on and trying to hire mercs at the time.

I never called you a cheater.

As for hiring members of DRAGON to fight for ELITE against IGN. I expected more from you. As I said in our PMs, ELITE is an order comprised solely of experienced players (that is what your order page states). Publicly you insinuate that I will hire your allies to fight against you. In private messages you apologize. I call you out on hiring Zhou Yun in public and you respond in public that you weren't even AC. I apologized to you in public. In private you admit that it was you who hired him "by mistake". The next morning I find yet another member of DRAGON hired "by mistake" and again I hear that you were not AC at the time. I called you a liar because you say one thing in public and something different in private.

I have no problems with you attacking while our mutual allies sit, that is good tactics. I do have a problem when our mutual allies sit in agreement by all parties and then you hire them to fight for you.

I publicly declared that if DRAGON and DSOV did not sit I would consider dropping them as allies. I only want allies who will keep their word. I am bound by my word and I expect my allies to be the same. It is a sign of arrogance that you decided to "raise support" for IGNs defense. Once I declared no volunteers were needed, that is that. Who are you to assume you know how to run my order better than me? Once I messaged the other Christian orders to avoid supporting IGN, your trying to get DSOV involved would only do more harm than good. The way the game works, it forces players to commit to actions (work, battle, plunder). With other orders notified not to show, they made decisions that made it impossible to show for our defense.

I did not see what my AC said in the SB that was so inflammatory, however, I do not trust your perspective on things. I will ask him. If discipline is in order, I will deliver it.

I have had an exchange with Batini. I understand and respect him. I have no issues with ELITE.

Unless there are further aspects of that night that need to be clarified, I expect that my participation in this thread is done.

Black Wind, OM of IGN
*fades like a dream at dawn*

Sain Cai

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3

Monday, December 1st 2008, 11:26pm

So IGN complained you fought them, and since you share allies, cut off support from them.

Ya know that sounds alot like another battle when IGN attacked an order since their target's ally was at battle at the same time, thus cutting off their main support as well.

Sort of contradicting hmmm?

4

Monday, December 1st 2008, 11:27pm

Now Im not trying to take sides in this issue because I respect you both and obviously I dont know details, but peoples reactions to battles are a given. There are some that wont say anything and accept it as is, there are some that will complain in the SB non-stop, there are others that choose if it is worthwhile or not to call allies to a battle. Along with that it is always viewed one way or another by the opponents. Obviously both sides will never see exactly eye to eye on the subject so there will be disagreements over who was honorable or not in the fight and so on. Telling people to sit out could easily be viewed as folding over, however it isnt necessarily a bad move if you know you will lose no matter what...why have friends/allies lose 8 or more hours of pay just to heal fully after a battle and instead get maybe 100 gold and some experience.

Either way my main point is that OMs/ACs wont always view things the same when it comes to battles, but there shouldnt be a reason to post it in the forum when it was already public within the respective worlds SB.

Thats my 2 cents take it or leave it.

5

Monday, December 1st 2008, 11:57pm

Publicly you insinuate that I will hire your allies to fight against you. In private messages you apologize.
We went over this thrice and I'm amazed you have the gall to still bring it up. I NEVER insinuated you would hire against us. I said in the SB (with a big :D smilie) that LM should pull out of stall so IGN doesn't get him. that's nothing against you, and it was half joking anyway...gee, if you bring this one up again, you'll just look deperate.

Quoted

I call you out on hiring Zhou Yun in public and you respond in public that you weren't even AC. I apologized to you in public. In private you admit that it was you who hired him "by mistake". The next morning I find yet another member of DRAGON hired "by mistake" and again I hear that you were not AC at the time. I called you a liar because you say one thing in public and something different in private.
and I explained this in the above post, and in 2 PMs which you apparently didn't read...... please read again :rolleyes:

Quoted

I have no problems with you attacking while our mutual allies sit, that is good tactics. I do have a problem when our mutual allies sit in agreement by all parties and then you hire them to fight for you.
You talk as if it was done deliberately. I explained myself perfectly clear in the first post and if you haven't gotten the point by now... I can't help you.
Just in case you'll get it if I say it again... Zhou Yun was an accident, and contrarian wasn't my doing... gee, move on. I wouldn't have hired contrarion even if she's asked. we didn't need her help, especially for over 2000 gold.

Quoted

I publicly declared that if DRAGON and DSOV did not sit I would consider dropping them as allies. I only want allies who will keep their word. I am bound by my word and I expect my allies to be the same. It is a sign of arrogance that you decided to "raise support" for IGNs defense. Once I declared no volunteers were needed, that is that. Who are you to assume you know how to run my order better than me? Once I messaged the other Christian orders to avoid supporting IGN, your trying to get DSOV involved would only do more harm than good.
this is a sad attempt to twist my good intentions and villianize me with them again. I did it in compensation for an error. that's not arrogent. it's called a favor! For you to take what good I do and twist it around to make me look bad for doing it is only gonna make you look lame. I was sorry for my mistake so I tried to make up for it. You can, of course, get judgmental, and assume that I was trying to "run your order," but the truth is much simpler then that. The truth is, I made a mistake and wanted to make it good. DonReality had hinted to me that he wanted to join IGN, so I gave him full permission, stating ELITE would not hold it against him if he did...is that so bad???

Quoted

I did not see what my AC said in the SB that was so inflammatory, however, I do not trust your perspective on things. I will ask him. If discipline is in order, I will deliver it.
My mistake again. I thought Cerno was OM and you were AC... my bad...

6

Tuesday, December 2nd 2008, 12:01am

Quoted

Now Im not trying to take sides in this issue because I respect you both and obviously I dont know details, but peoples reactions to battles are a given. There are some that wont say anything and accept it as is, there are some that will complain in the SB non-stop, there are others that choose if it is worthwhile or not to call allies to a battle. Along with that it is always viewed one way or another by the opponents. Obviously both sides will never see exactly eye to eye on the subject so there will be disagreements over who was honorable or not in the fight and so on. Telling people to sit out could easily be viewed as folding over, however it isnt necessarily a bad move if you know you will lose no matter what...why have friends/allies lose 8 or more hours of pay just to heal fully after a battle and instead get maybe 100 gold and some experience.

Either way my main point is that OMs/ACs wont always view things the same when it comes to battles, but there shouldnt be a reason to post it in the forum when it was already public within the respective worlds SB.

Thats my 2 cents take it or leave it.
I must agree with you gamble. it's true that there will be differences of opinion and I can live with that. however I resent that Black Wind can presume to judge my motives and state his interpretaton of them as fact. I have not done so to him and would appreciate the same courtesy. That he called me a liar is not an interpretation- it is a fact. that I am a liar is only hs interpretation of my actions as he cannot proove it. I resent that he immediately assumes the worst

cerno

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7

Tuesday, December 2nd 2008, 12:10am

I think the confusion here is that IGN has rotating AC's. Myself [AC1] and Dread [AC2]. Also BW was up all night and moved me to OM and Dread to AC so we could hire more mercs while he caught a few winks. I didn't even realize this till about an hour after the battle. I assumed I was either in the AC position or Dread was. We where out of funds by the time I got on so it didn't matter too me at that point and i never looked to see what position I was in the order.

Anyways I did say once or twice in the SB that my allies got merc-jacked. Which is completely true they where, but what kind of reaction do you expect from me when i wake up and there is 2 hours left for a battle and I look at the camp and see my own allies hired against me and a ton of PM's in my inbox about being merc jacked?

I'm not sore about loosing and i'm pretty sure BW isn't either. We don't expect to win every battle and we've have more battles than anyone this past 2 weeks. I think Legion is the only other Order in W6 that has had as many battles as we have. We've had 3 battles this past week. Below is our battle history.


10.1.08 IGN vs Px (win) 276 gold

10.6.08 IGN vs LEGION (win) 42 gold

10.7.08 Px vs IGN (Loss)

10.18.08 IGN vs SIN (win)

10.26.08 LEGION vs IGN (Loss) 117 gold

11.03.08 TOP vs IGN (win) 0 gold

11.13.08 RB vs IGN (win) 376 gold

11.16.08 NIGHTMARE vs IGN (loss) 18 gold

11.23.08 IGN vs NIGHTMARE (win) 464 gold (1 of 4 Christian victories)

11.27.08 HUH vs IGN (win) 11 gold (Most wins in W6 at 7)

11.30.08 ELITE vs IGN (loss) 6 gold

@Sain it wasn't the fact that an ally got cut off from joining the
battle, I expect those tactics to be used. It's hiring your allies
against you that is not cool.

ps. is it merc-jacked or merc jacked? or are both acceptable?

8

Tuesday, December 2nd 2008, 12:19am

I can understand your point Jabbar but you then have to account for the heat of battle and such. Sometimes people say things they dont mean, or because of emotions/previous comments/so on their meaning could be taken different ways. Again this accounts for the different viewpoints and interpretations. Posting in the forum just calls for further argument because now you are posting a lasting thing that will stay in the forums past the said battle. Any order that gets publicly criticized in the forums is bound to react to the comments. Any good OM or AC would definitely want to save face where they need to and clear up things that are misconstrued. Ive been on both ends of the forums debates attacking side (about Px allies) defending side (about the-Borg of world 4).

I understand that you may not be happy with what BW may or may not have said but obviously he will be of like opinion with some of the things you have said. The difference of views and interpretations obviously have you both thinking some things werent big while others where. I feel a post in the forums by your part actually only makes you look worse by making a world 6 issue a HW issue by bringing it past the original battle. Talk in the SB or in PM if you want, but when you take it to the forum you bring in people that can hold no understanding to the issue (granted I can be one of those now) which can cause both parties to get even more defensive. Make sense?

erialc

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Tuesday, December 2nd 2008, 3:01am

I wouldn't have hired contrarion even if she's asked. we didn't need her help, especially for over 2000 gold.
When your friend merc jacked me he only paid 2000g no more, I hope that makes you feel better :)
W2 contrarian (non-premium) ~ W3 contra (non-premium)~ W4 contra aka erialc (non-premium) ~ W5 Yasmine - Sold ~ W6 contrarian (OM) Dragon Warriors ~ W8 Holy PIA (non-premium) (OM) Because We Can

Sain Cai

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10

Tuesday, December 2nd 2008, 4:11am



@Sain it wasn't the fact that an ally got cut off from joining the
battle, I expect those tactics to be used. It's hiring your allies
against you that is not cool.



Yes those tactics are used, to fight someone you cannot defeat in a fair fight. I call that being cowardly, attacking someone when their allies are already tied up in battle.

cerno

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11

Tuesday, December 2nd 2008, 6:03am

Quoted from "cerno"


@Sain it wasn't the fact that an ally got cut off from joining the
battle, I expect those tactics to be used. It's hiring your allies
against you that is not cool.



Yes those tactics are used, to fight someone you cannot defeat in a fair fight. I call that being cowardly, attacking someone when their allies are already tied up in battle.
Well since this thread is already hi-jacked. I'll explain a bit more for you Dradaki, since your so upset about that battle.



There where 4 battles that day 3 of them in conflict of times. Dragon
declared on Sx. Px declared on THRoB. IGN declared on NIGHTMARE. LEGION
declared on RONIN. Everyone's forces where split all over.



In all honesty I think it was a great battle day. We knew it would be a
tough battle for us and thought it would be fun to fight you without
the massive backing of Px behind you. Nightmare and IGN where just about the exact
same size at the time.



I'm sorry you feel the way you do because I thought we had respect for each other.

Sain Cai

Unregistered

12

Tuesday, December 2nd 2008, 6:12am

Well of course it would be fun to fight Nightmare without the help of our sole ally, while you still enjoyed at least 3 of your allied support. The Dragon battle was not an issue, as contrarian fought on your side since you were allies. In fact I do believe you had help from your allies, since none were in battle during our time.

So yes, although I certainly feel IGN took advantage, a cowardly advantage, by attacking knowing we wouldnt have the support of Px, you and your entire order lost my respect. least when I declared, there was no conflicting battles. An honorable battle.

cerno

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13

Tuesday, December 2nd 2008, 10:03pm

Oh yeah forgot about the PM Jabbar sent to one of our allies:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ELITE has decided to go to war with IGN for some friendly sport. I understand this may place your order in a somewhat awkward position as
IGN are allies of yours as well.



What would you preffer to do? will you be abstaining, supporting one side, or might you be available to merc in this battle? ELITE could Offer you and your members a decent sum."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So apparently you had extreme intentions of hiring our allies.

14

Wednesday, December 3rd 2008, 9:21am

You call that EXTREME INTENTIONS! HAA! leaving options open to out allies in not extreme intentions. ELITE had limited funds and could only have hired a small amount of allies. if they had merced for us, that gives you the right to hire them as well, so what's the issue? I didn't have "extreme intentions" I was leaving all options open and when they said they'd sit out I didn't persue it. I would have hired them more as a favor to them. if they had chosen to merc for us, it would have drained our coffers which would otherwise have been spent on regular mercs... do you see how faulty your logic is?

The Missing Rum

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15

Wednesday, December 3rd 2008, 8:57pm

i do not see anything wrong with mercing shared allies against the other team
in almost every order, the rule is that if 2 allies fight, you sit it out or merc

contrarian and the level 27 were merced which still fits that rule

erialc

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16

Wednesday, December 3rd 2008, 9:57pm

contrarian and the level 27 were merced which still fits that rule
TMR, I was clearly marked as I do in all worlds that I merc in, I cut and paste my allies from the order page and state will NOT fight against allies. I heard my fellow Dragon was also clearly marked. Secondly I informed both of Dragon's allies that it was our order policy and terms of our alliance that we sit out of battles when two allies fight. So as you can see Dragon does not fit into your own "general" rule. Actually I have never heard of this rule before you mentioned it.

Anyways neither the ELITE OM or AC were at fault in my case and it was just an unfortunate event. I was just addressing the fact that when clearly marked in the merc stall, I feel your rule does not apply :)
W2 contrarian (non-premium) ~ W3 contra (non-premium)~ W4 contra aka erialc (non-premium) ~ W5 Yasmine - Sold ~ W6 contrarian (OM) Dragon Warriors ~ W8 Holy PIA (non-premium) (OM) Because We Can

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17

Wednesday, December 3rd 2008, 11:30pm

i do not see anything wrong with mercing shared allies against the other team
in almost every order, the rule is that if 2 allies fight, you sit it out or merc
Every order has different policies. Some always sit out. Some will merc individually for the highest bidder. W2 EnR used to have some members that would merc and others that weren't allowed to be hired. Early in TG1, AoD's leaders would negotiate with the two sides, and whoever won the bidding got the exclusive right to hire AoD members for that battle. I think everyone has a responsibility to know their allies' policies before doing anything; you can't just assume that they're the same as your own.

It does sound like Jabbar tried to find out the mutual allies' position in advance, although it would have been smarter to find out well in advance of the battle (if for no other reason than to avoid leaking advance knowledge), and obviously they should have been more careful not to hire allies after being told not to.

But if erialc thinks this case was just an "unfortunate event" that nobody's to blame for, and she's the one who was hired, it sounds like everything's fine.
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Sain Cai

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18

Thursday, December 4th 2008, 12:13am

My general policy in this situation is that my order helps the defending order